Author Topic: REG consideration  (Read 468 times)

Offline SEB

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REG consideration
« on: May 18, 2018, 09:32:51 AM »
The other day, as I was asking rules questions and someone was helping me understand via the REG, a thought came across my mind: the next time the REG gets updated/revised, could we consider numbering the rules and bullet points? Most large bodies of work that require people to reference specific parts do something like this (the Bible, legal codes, etc). It would be a great tool for communication for players, judges, and forum discussion ("Yeah, Timmy, Rule 221.2 is what you are looking for."). So the proposed change would look something like:

210 Cannot be Interrupted
How to play
   211.1 The cannot be interrupted modifier modifies an ability, making it so that the modified ability cannot be targeted by any interrupt or negate effect
               activated after the card the modified ability is on is played
   211.2 The granting of cannot be interrupted to any ability cannot be negated.
   211.3 An ability cannot gain cannot be interrupted retroactively; it has cannot be interrupted when the card it is on is played or not at all.
Special Conditions
   212 An Enhancement with an ability that has been modified by a cannot be interrupted modifier remains on the
               playing surface if it would otherwise be cascade negated to a previous location
Clarifications
   213 When a sentence in a special ability includes the cannot be interrupted modifier and does not specify what abilities the cannot be interrupted
               modifier modifies, it modifies all abilities on the card that appear before the sentence containing the modifier.



220 Cannot be Negated
How to play
   221.1 The cannot be negated modifier modifies an ability, making it so that the modified ability cannot be targeted by any interrupt, prevent or negate
               effect
   221.2 The granting of cannot be negated to any ability cannot be negated
   221.3 An ability cannot gain cannot be negated retroactively; it has cannot be negated when the card it is on is played or not at all.
Special Conditions
   222.1 All abilities on Dominants are cannot be negated
   222.2 An Enhancement or Dominant with an ability that has been modified by a cannot be negated modifier remains on the playing surface if it would
               otherwise be cascade negated to a previous location.
Clarifications
   223 When a sentence in a special ability includes the cannot be negated modifier and does not specify what abilities the cannot be negated modifier
               modifies, it modifies all abilities on the card that appear before the sentence containing the modifier.


The number system is not that important as long as it is consistent. The above is just an example to my point.

Keith
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Offline Gabe

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018, 09:45:20 AM »
This is an excellent suggestion!

Very soon a minor REG update will take place to add FoM and a few rules updates. After Nationals the next major REG update will take place (v6.0). This is something that is more likely to be an improvement for 6.0.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2018, 10:10:16 AM »
Definitely a great idea. Maybe we can keep it Biblically thematic and do something like this:

Paralyze 6:32

;)
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Offline SEB

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2018, 10:13:11 AM »
Definitely a great idea. Maybe we can keep it Biblically thematic and do something like this:

Paralyze 6:32

;)

Oh that would kind of neat.
Not sure how that would look as some of the sections have quite a few sub points, and what if the need arrived for a sub-sub point?
Keith
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Offline Watchman

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2018, 10:37:33 AM »
Then you do this:

Paralyze 6:32a
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Offline bluefrog1288

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2018, 10:51:07 AM »
Please do this! Great idea SEB!

Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2018, 01:59:20 PM »
The special condition for Immune/Protect has a sub-sub-sub point - any suggestions for that?

Offline The Guardian

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2018, 02:00:34 PM »
6:23a-i  8)
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2018, 05:51:09 PM »
Going off Watchman's example, is it sufficient to number each level individually (like below) and refer to them as 1:1a(i) (or whatever the standard becomes), or does the REG need to put it all together?

Cannot be Interrupted
  • How to play
    • The cannot be interrupted modifier modifies an ability, making it so that the modified ability cannot be targeted by any interrupt or negate effect activated after the card the modified ability is on is played.
    • The granting of cannot be interrupted to any ability cannot be negated.
    • An ability cannot gain cannot be interrupted retroactively; it has cannot be interrupted when the card it is on is played or not at all.
  • Special Conditions
    • An Enhancement with an ability that has been modified by a cannot be interrupted modifier remains on the playing surface if it would otherwise be cascade negated to a previous location.
  • Clarifications
    • When a sentence in a special ability includes the cannot be interrupted modifier and does not specify what abilities the cannot be interrupted modifier modifies, it modifies all abilities on the card that appear before the sentence containing the modifier.
Cannot be Negated
  • How to play
    • The cannot be negated modifier modifies an ability, making it so that the modified ability cannot be targeted by any interrupt, prevent or negate effect.
    • The granting of cannot be negated to any ability cannot be negated.
    • An ability cannot gain cannot be negated retroactively; it has cannot be negated when the card it is on is played or not at all.
  • Special Conditions
    • All abilities on Dominants are cannot be negated.
    • An Enhancement or Dominant with an ability that has been modified by a cannot be negated modifier remains on the playing surface if it would otherwise be cascade negated to a previous location.
  • Clarifications
    • When a sentence in a special ability includes the cannot be negated modifier and does not specify what abilities the cannot be negated modifier modifies, it modifies all abilities on the card that appear before the sentence containing the modifier.

Offline SEB

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2018, 06:51:11 PM »
Going off Watchman's example, is it sufficient to number each level individually (like below) and refer to them as 1:1a(i) (or whatever the standard becomes), or does the REG need to put it all together?

Cannot be Interrupted
  • How to play
    • The cannot be interrupted modifier modifies an ability, making it so that the modified ability cannot be targeted by any interrupt or negate effect activated after the card the modified ability is on is played.
    • The granting of cannot be interrupted to any ability cannot be negated.
    • An ability cannot gain cannot be interrupted retroactively; it has cannot be interrupted when the card it is on is played or not at all.
  • Special Conditions
    • An Enhancement with an ability that has been modified by a cannot be interrupted modifier remains on the playing surface if it would otherwise be cascade negated to a previous location.
  • Clarifications
    • When a sentence in a special ability includes the cannot be interrupted modifier and does not specify what abilities the cannot be interrupted modifier modifies, it modifies all abilities on the card that appear before the sentence containing the modifier.
Cannot be Negated
  • How to play
    • The cannot be negated modifier modifies an ability, making it so that the modified ability cannot be targeted by any interrupt, prevent or negate effect.
    • The granting of cannot be negated to any ability cannot be negated.
    • An ability cannot gain cannot be negated retroactively; it has cannot be negated when the card it is on is played or not at all.
  • Special Conditions
    • All abilities on Dominants are cannot be negated.
    • An Enhancement or Dominant with an ability that has been modified by a cannot be negated modifier remains on the playing surface if it would otherwise be cascade negated to a previous location.
  • Clarifications
    • When a sentence in a special ability includes the cannot be negated modifier and does not specify what abilities the cannot be negated modifier modifies, it modifies all abilities on the card that appear before the sentence containing the modifier.

The only bad thing about this example is that there is not a unique identity to each rule. The REG is more like a law code than anything else. So, each rule should have a unique identifier with each sub point unique too. This example doesnt help us much more than the bullets (because we can currently say 2nd point). You want to be able to point people to a specific line, like in my example.
Keith
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2018, 06:58:57 PM »
Which is where you use the name of the ability - so CBN 2:1 is the rule that Doms are CBN. We can number the modifiers and effects, but the names are usually short enough (and some of them are empty/redirect to others) that I'm not sure we gain a lot.

Offline Gabe

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2018, 07:04:03 PM »
Which is where you use the name of the ability - so CBN 2:1 is the rule that Doms are CBN. We can number the modifiers and effects, but the names are usually short enough (and some of them are empty/redirect to others) that I'm not sure we gain a lot.

I don't think we gain much by only changing bullet points to numbers. If we assign a number to each rule then we can reference them by name or number. Reference by name will click better for some people, by number better for others. Let's say for example that CBN is #8. You can say CBN 2:1 or you can say 8.2.1 (or 8:2:1).
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Offline tripleplayNa1

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2018, 07:06:39 PM »
I think referring to REG references like Bible verses is just a bit strange... I like the unique numbered method like SEB originally suggested.
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#CascadeDelendaEst

Offline Watchman

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2018, 10:44:07 PM »
I think referring to REG references like Bible verses is just a bit strange... I like the unique numbered method like SEB originally suggested.

It may be unconventional when it comes to how other rule or laws are written but a numbering system that mirrors the Bible would be familiar to the vast majority of players in this community, and it has a nice thematic and somewhat unique element to it as well.
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Offline tripleplayNa1

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2018, 11:16:13 PM »
I think referring to REG references like Bible verses is just a bit strange... I like the unique numbered method like SEB originally suggested.

It may be unconventional when it comes to how other rule or laws are written but a numbering system that mirrors the Bible would be familiar to the vast majority of players in this community, and it has a nice thematic and somewhat unique element to it as well.

As Gabe mentioned it could be done with a full numbering system and you could easily reference the same thing both ways :) that option works best imo.
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Offline SEB

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2018, 08:29:11 AM »
I think referring to REG references like Bible verses is just a bit strange... I like the unique numbered method like SEB originally suggested.

It may be unconventional when it comes to how other rule or laws are written but a numbering system that mirrors the Bible would be familiar to the vast majority of players in this community, and it has a nice thematic and somewhat unique element to it as well.

I agree that it would be great for a "thematic" affect, but the more I think about it, the more I think it should more practical. It's mostly for the visual of a long list of Rules. Starting back at "1" for each section does not give us much more than the current bullet points give now (except they are numbers instead of bullet points).

The system of "Book CH:VV" in non-legal literature works well because of chapters and paragraphs. Law Codes dont have chapters and paragraphs, they have a list of rules. Those works were not intended to be read starting on page 1 to  the end; need to reference specific rules; and help the reader distinguish logically the demarcation of the rules and sub-rules (like: 221.2 is not 211.2) with clear visual breaks.

Let me restate it this way: The "rule number" of a law code would be similar to "chapter numbers" of non-legal literature. How hard would it be on Sunday Morning if you heard from the pulpit: "Turn your Bibles to Joshua Battle Of Ai:13" people would have to comb through their Bibles to find that section. So, if a judge is helping a player during a rules question in a tournament and says, " Well, according to the REG Cannot be Negated:2, we see that . . ." if that player wants to reference that rule later it is much more difficult than, "Well, rule 221.2, we see that . . . "

When it comes to "rules" in a card game (especially TCGs), you have to approach it more like a lawyer approaches a Law Code. Often, on the forums and at tournaments, it's a battle of semantics and the hairline difference between an article ("deck" vis-à-vis "a deck").

Who really reads their state's law code? Lawyers, judges, and law makers. The average player will only interact with the REG when tournament players, judges, and card designers tell them about it.
Keith
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Offline Watchman

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2018, 08:48:27 AM »
Either way. I just threw that out as an idea. If it won’t work then no biggie.

Here’s an example of how a law is broken down and numbered and may serve as an example for any REG numbering system. This is an excerpt from the Florida State Statutes:

812.014 Theft.—
(1) A person commits theft if he or she knowingly obtains or uses, or endeavors to obtain or to use, the property of another with intent to, either temporarily or permanently:
(a) Deprive the other person of a right to the property or a benefit from the property.
(b) Appropriate the property to his or her own use or to the use of any person not entitled to the use of the property.
(2)(a)1. If the property stolen is valued at $100,000 or more or is a semitrailer that was deployed by a law enforcement officer; or
2. If the property stolen is cargo valued at $50,000 or more that has entered the stream of interstate or intrastate commerce from the shipper’s loading platform to the consignee’s receiving dock; or
3. If the offender commits any grand theft and:
a. In the course of committing the offense the offender uses a motor vehicle as an instrumentality, other than merely as a getaway vehicle, to assist in committing the offense and thereby damages the real property of another; or
b. In the course of committing the offense the offender causes damage to the real or personal property of another in excess of $1,000,
the offender commits grand theft in the first degree, punishable as a felony of the first degree, as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
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Offline SEB

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Re: REG consideration
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2018, 08:56:42 AM »
I went to +1 you and cant  >:(
Keith
Son, exonerated from bondage (S.E.B.)