Author Topic: 2-Player Booster Draft  (Read 27222 times)

Offline uthminister [BR]

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2-Player Booster Draft
« on: May 06, 2018, 09:27:21 AM »
+4
I have personally been hoping for Booster Draft to become a 2-player event for quite some time. I had implemented it a handful of times at local playgroup events and found it to be much more appealing than the multiplayer variety for a variety of reasons. At the Texas State we decided to jump in with both feet and go for it. And now, we are wanting to implement it at our Regional and National tournaments as well. That is where the announcement came in about Nationals being 2-player Booster Draft.

So what are your thoughts about Booster Draft becoming a 2-player event versus it staying a multiplayer event?

Redemption Community,

The Elders have conferred, and Rob has spoken:

Effective immediately, Two-Player booster is a host option for Booster draft. Drafting will still be done in a multiplayer setting and then pairings will be made. This will be the method of booster play at Nationals this year.

The host guide will be updated accordingly.

MP booster games are still a sanctioned option if your playgroup prefers that style.

All RNRS points remain the same and will count towards "Booster draft" regardless if 2P or MP option is used
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 05:32:08 PM by ReyZen »

Offline Gabe

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2018, 09:42:14 AM »
0
To be clear as to what we're talking about, in 2-player booster draft you still draft at a 4 player table, then break up into pairs and play 2-player games with the deck you drafted.

If that's the format we're talking about it's much more desirable than MP booster draft and changes draft strategies quite a bit (for the better)!
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Offline NathanW

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2018, 09:52:15 AM »
0
So is this considered an official category or modification to booster draft? The host guide only gives an option for multi-player booster draft.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 09:56:37 AM by tripleplayNa1 »
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Offline Watchman

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2018, 10:04:15 AM »
0
I'm absolutely for a two-player booster draft vs. multi.  In fact, I think tournament hosts should be given the option to do 2 player or multi based upon the players' choice.  The problem with this idea is the RNRS.  There must be consistency with the ranking system with one type or the other.   So if there we are given the option of one over the other I would totally do 2 player.

Travis - At your tournaments with you doing 2 player booster, were those official games or just side-bar games?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2018, 10:11:16 AM »
0
So is this considered an official category or modification to booster draft? The host guide only gives an option for multi-player booster draft.

At this point it's simply a discussion. The conversation about what is "official" has been started as well and all official documents will be updated if a change is implemented.
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Offline NathanW

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2018, 10:21:49 AM »
0
So is this considered an official category or modification to booster draft? The host guide only gives an option for multi-player booster draft.

At this point it's simply a discussion. The conversation about what is "official" has been started as well and all official documents will be updated if a change is implemented.

I'm asking because I would like to know if we could do the 2p booster draft as an official category or if we would need to do an unofficial draft in the 2p format.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2018, 10:27:53 AM »
0
I’d like to know as well.  ;)

As soon as an official answer is confirmed it will be shared. I only heard about this today myself.
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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2018, 11:34:16 AM »
+1
2 player booster is great.

Been my favorite since the first tournament I went to where you hosted and we played 2 player booster. Always thought it was way better and far more strategic.

Not really sure why booster has been seemingly locked into multiplayer amid multiple seasons and nationals where I hear literally everyone saying they would rather play 2p booster.

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2018, 02:05:54 PM »
+1
Being a part of the 2 player booster experience with the texas play group I have to say that it was the most enjoyable booster I've done from a gameplay standpoint. You do have to employ a little bit different of a strategy but nothing major or anything. The games themselves were a lot more involved and exciting. I've always loved the deckbuilding and creative aspects of booster and in a 2 player format this seems to be highlighted a bit more and less about where souls land and the opportunity to get to 5 before other players etc.

Offline Master Q

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2018, 03:25:15 PM »
+1
So... if you're droughted for a few turns, or if your opponent managed to draft something ridiculous you might not have an answer to, it's basically gg, since there's no option to attack any other player? Great. :P

I intensely dislike MP categories outside of booster mainly because of all the Dominants and the greater potential for 'ganging up on the leader'. Booster doesn't really have to worry about that. However, what it does have is arguably as bad or worse (RLKs and misplays by opponents that don't really know how best to play), so making it two player somewhat mitigates that.

But, since I don't play MP categories at any tournament outside of booster, I would probably be saddened slightly if booster turned into just "another two player category". Another part of booster I really enjoy is playing with a wide variety of people all at once; a lot of whom I usually don't get to play with. That is a double-sided coin too, as you could get lucky and be placed at a table with a bunch of people you really enjoy playing with, or you could be at a table with people that may not know what they're doing (RLKs, parents entering a tournament to get more cards for kids, etc). If you do have a bad draft, you're more likely to have fun playing against multiple opponents rather than just one.

There are pros and cons of this and I definitely wouldn't want to rush into it without some testing. But, I will say the best part of booster by far is actually drafting the cards. You play to see all the other cool interactions with cards you'd usually never play, but playing the game is secondary, really. Personally, I feel like I get enough of 2P at a tournament already.
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 08:36:04 PM »
+9
Redemption Community,

The Elders have conferred, and Rob has spoken:

Effective immediately, Two-Player booster is a host option for Booster draft. Drafting will still be done in a multiplayer setting and then pairings will be made. This will be the method of booster play at Nationals this year.

The host guide will be updated accordingly.

MP booster games are still a sanctioned option if your playgroup prefers that style.

All RNRS points remain the same and will count towards "Booster draft" regardless if 2P or MP option is used
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Offline MrMiYoda

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 09:43:42 PM »
+1
Steps to use the Berkenpas Excel Scorekeeper for 2P Booster Draft:

a. Use Multiplayer Tab. Set to Type 1. Enter all player names as usual.
b. Shuffle 2-3 times by clicking "Start". Assign tables based on groupings. Start draft.
c. Copy and paste name selection on Notepad to remove any Excel formatting.
d. Use a new 2-Player tab. Set to Type 1. Copy and paste name selection from Notepad into name column. Shuffle 2-3 times by clicking 'Start'.
e. Assign pairings made by Excel. Begin play.

SAFETY TIP: Save Excel after each operation ie. ones above, per score entry, etc. --- Use Obiwan DOS-style 'Save' command Ctrl + S as desired.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 04:43:17 PM by ReyZen »
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Offline Josh

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2018, 12:07:58 AM »
0
So... if you're droughted for a few turns, or if your opponent managed to draft something ridiculous you might not have an answer to, it's basically gg, since there's no option to attack any other player? Great. :P

I wouldn't go so far as to say a few turns of drought kills you.  When you draft with 2-player games in mind, you actually have to draft defense.

As for someone drafting something ridiculous, chances are they can probably use that "something ridiculous" to win souls in a multiplayer game too, especially since they get to choose whom to attack, and players don't draft defense in multi-boosting.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2018, 05:04:04 AM »
0
The Elders have conferred, and Rob has spoken:

Effective immediately, Two-Player booster is a host option for Booster draft. Drafting will still be done in a multiplayer setting and then pairings will be made. This will be the method of booster play at Nationals this year.

The host guide will be updated accordingly.
After you draft in your table of four, how is the first round of pairings performed?  Are you automatically paired against someone you drafted against or are you randomly assigned an opponent from all players playing booster?

Offline The Guardian

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2018, 10:01:08 AM »
0
The Elders have conferred, and Rob has spoken:

Effective immediately, Two-Player booster is a host option for Booster draft. Drafting will still be done in a multiplayer setting and then pairings will be made. This will be the method of booster play at Nationals this year.

The host guide will be updated accordingly.
After you draft in your table of four, how is the first round of pairings performed?  Are you automatically paired against someone you drafted against or are you randomly assigned an opponent from all players playing booster?

My understanding is that pairings would be randomly assigned once drafting is complete (presumably done while people are deck building).
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2018, 10:32:12 AM »
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I've only done this once or twice.  But every time I've done it the players pair with the person across from them.

Offline Gabe

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2018, 10:46:06 AM »
+2
I've only done this once or twice.  But every time I've done it the players pair with the person across from them.

That’s much more difficult with the spreadsheet but easier if you run things manually. I prefer random pairings. Players are less inclined to “hate draft” and more likely to focus on building their own deck.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2018, 03:53:45 PM »
0
After you draft in your table of four, how is the first round of pairings performed?  Are you automatically paired against someone you drafted against or are you randomly assigned an opponent from all players playing booster?

My understanding is that pairings would be randomly assigned once drafting is complete (presumably done while people are deck building).

-and-

I've only done this once or twice.  But every time I've done it the players pair with the person across from them.

That’s much more difficult with the spreadsheet but easier if you run things manually. I prefer random pairings. Players are less inclined to “hate draft” and more likely to focus on building their own deck.

You could always generate the pairings first and then assign tables of four from that.  Adding "hate drafting" into the mix will considerably up the degree of strategy into the deck-construction process.

In any event (ha!)...  Will there be official Cactus rules for 2P booster coming out sometime before it becomes an official event?

Offline The Guardian

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2018, 04:00:46 PM »
0
We are currently working to revise the tournament guide to reflect this new option.

While there's definitely some added strategy considerations if you're for certain playing someone from your table, I think in the majority of tournaments outside of Nationals, that's going to happen anyway.
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Offline MrMiYoda

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2018, 04:48:40 PM »
0
I've only done this once or twice.  But every time I've done it the players pair with the person across from them.

That’s much more difficult with the spreadsheet but easier if you run things manually. I prefer random pairings. Players are less inclined to “hate draft” and more likely to focus on building their own deck.

Just in case others may not have seen my post, we had used the Berkenpas Excel format to run the event at TX States. Suggested way to use it for 2P Booster, below:
http://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-tournaments/2-player-booster-draft-40237/msg583871/#msg583871
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 05:33:05 PM by ReyZen »
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Offline _JM_

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2018, 10:23:39 AM »
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Big fan of this, I've absolutely loved the 2P drafts I've been part of.

I'd advocate for larger table sizes when drafting.  The TLG drafts I participated in were 8 person tables, which works really well for letting players develop different drafting strategies as well as helping to mitigate the impact of poor packs (because more are opened per table).  As you're developing both offense and defense, seeing more cards helps people build more cohesive decks.  This also doesn't really affect the amount of time that drafting takes, and seating for the tables can be generated in a similar manner as Roy documented with the spreadsheet.

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2018, 10:30:17 AM »
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8 person draft pods sounds really cool! It might be hard to implement at smaller tournaments but could be fun to try at Nationals.
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Offline Xonathan

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2018, 10:44:05 AM »
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Gosh, I'm so excited for booster at nationals! Who is even gonna want to play t1 multi now?  ;D
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 11:47:05 PM by ReyZen »
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2018, 04:47:54 PM »
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Big fan of this, I've absolutely loved the 2P drafts I've been part of.

I'd advocate for larger table sizes when drafting.  The TLG drafts I participated in were 8 person tables, which works really well for letting players develop different drafting strategies as well as helping to mitigate the impact of poor packs (because more are opened per table).  As you're developing both offense and defense, seeing more cards helps people build more cohesive decks.  This also doesn't really affect the amount of time that drafting takes, and seating for the tables can be generated in a similar manner as Roy documented with the spreadsheet.

Interesting... In the tournament I hosted last weekend we had 6 people for Booster and I thought it would be better to draft in two pods of 3 instead of drafting all together so that it was less likely people would end up drafting the same brigades. IMO it's easier to recognize when someone else is taking the same brigades you are when there's 3 or 4 people as opposed to 5 or 6. If you do recognize that, it's sometimes possible to move into new brigades that aren't being drafted.
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Offline Isildur

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2018, 05:01:54 PM »
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I wish I had seen this thread sooner!

Something to consider would be to do two player drafting similar to how MTG does their prerelease kits. Which is essentially give players a tin, or X number of fixed cards and X number of packs and build a deck from that.

I wish two player drafting had been a thing back in the day!
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2018, 05:03:27 PM »
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I wish I had seen this thread sooner!

Something to consider would be to do two player drafting similar to how MTG does their prerelease kits. Which is essentially give players a tin, or X number of fixed cards and X number of packs and build a deck from that.

I wish two player drafting had been a thing back in the day!

So like Sealed Deck... :scratch:
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2018, 06:18:48 PM »
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Gosh, I'm so excited for booster at nationals! Who is even gonna want to play t1 multi now?  ;D

Honestly t1-multi is a category I've never won. I might just to see if I can put that notch in my belt.  Plus winner promo's are always amazing so if I'm competing against a pool 8 or 88 I might take the 8.
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Offline Isildur

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2018, 10:46:21 PM »
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So like Sealed Deck... :scratch:
Actually yes!

Sealed Deck has been out of vogue for a number of years (G/H days were prolly the last time it was a competitive category) maybe that could be a way to bring 2 player sealed categories back into competitive play.
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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2018, 01:38:52 AM »
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I would have to double check when I'm home, but I'm pretty sure Sealed has been a fairly strong category at Nationals the last few years. It doesn't get played as much at smaller tournaments probably due to cost.
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Offline NathanW

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2018, 01:44:43 AM »
+1
I would have to double check when I'm home, but I'm pretty sure Sealed has been a fairly strong category at Nationals the last few years. It doesn't get played as much at smaller tournaments probably due to cost.

I think the cost is less than booster draft but most of the time the value of cards is much less overall considering you usually get to draft 3-4 box packs. And imo but Oster Is way more interesting.
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Offline Isildur

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2018, 02:00:25 AM »
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I would have to double check when I'm home, but I'm pretty sure Sealed has been a fairly strong category at Nationals the last few years. It doesn't get played as much at smaller tournaments probably due to cost.

I think the cost is less than booster draft but most of the time the value of cards is much less overall considering you usually get to draft 3-4 box packs. And imo but booster Is way more interesting.
Boop. Nailed it on the head.

Sealed has always gotten some sort of following at Nats because it gets paired with lesser categories. Many players choose sealed instead of Type I Multi, Type II Multi, ect.

tripleplay is correct in that it doesn't get played at smaller tournies because booster has a greater variety of cards verses sealed. Players would rather get new cards or a variety of cards instead of half a starter and three old boosters they already have all the cards to. Cost is the same (or very close to the same) so that is a moot point. When players do super drafts or regular drafts with additional packs it costs way more then sealed does!

I think it might be worth exploring new official variations of "sealed" aka receiving sealed product and making a deck but no drafting, in addition to new variations of "booster draft".

Or... just scrapping traditional sealed deck altogether and making Sealed Categories "two player drafting" and "multi player drafting".
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 02:08:29 AM by Isildur »
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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2018, 02:08:12 AM »
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A two person draft does not have much appeal to me...you'll know exactly what cards your opponent is taking.
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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2018, 02:10:48 AM »
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A two person draft does not have much appeal to me...you'll know exactly what cards your opponent is taking.
Sorry. It's hard to be clear with text sometimes. When I was referring to "two player drafting" I meant two player games.

Have one category where players do two player games and another category where players do multiplayer games. Drafting for both game types is done with 3 or more players at a table. The games themselves will have different player counts.

Basically what has been already declared a official game type. I'm suggesting that replaces traditional Sealed Deck or maybe another form of drafting, or a different sealed product is used for "sealed deck" instead of starter decks. I referenced MTG prerelease kits earlier as a example of what I'm thinking of.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 02:13:55 AM by Isildur »
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Offline Isildur

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2018, 02:16:02 AM »
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A two person draft does not have much appeal to me...you'll know exactly what cards your opponent is taking.
You already know 50 of the cards your opponent has with traditional sealed deck ;)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 02:18:37 AM by Isildur »
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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2018, 05:12:44 AM »
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8 person draft pods sounds really cool! It might be hard to implement at smaller tournaments but could be fun to try at Nationals.

If Travis & Rob concur, I would love to test this Pod-of-Up-to-8 drafting format. Just found a perfect online Randomizer that would group players into pods of 8, a process that the Berkenpass scorekeeper cannot do.

https://www.randomlists.com/team-generator?items=Brock%0AGale%0AGustavo%0AHank%0AHector%0AHolly%0AJane%0AJesse%0ALydia%0AMarie%0AMike%0APete%0ASaul%0ASkyler%0ATodd%0AWalter%0ARob%0ARoy%0AGabe%0ATravis%0AJustin%0AJosiah%0ABrandon%0ANathan&grp=3
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 06:21:22 AM by ReyZen »
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2018, 12:26:36 PM »
0
To me, part of the strategy of drafting is evaluating what cards in the packs (particularly the first round of each pack) you need to take right away and what cards you might have passed back to you (in a 3 or 4 player draft). In an 8 person draft pod that aspect of the drafting strategy is more or less lost, which I would find disappointing.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2018, 12:50:17 PM »
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8 player drafting sounds terrible to be honest (mostly for Guardian's reason).

As an aside, if 2 player booster draft (3-4 person draft; 2 player games) is something that's not going away anytime soon, I would strongly put forth the motion for allowing both 2 player booster and traditional booster (MP games) to be hosted at States and higher assuming both are not run simultaneously. I would gladly play both instead of something like any of the current categories offered on the last day.
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Offline _JM_

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2018, 01:04:39 PM »
+1
Have you (Guardian and Master Q) drafted in an 8-person pod before?  That strategy you're talking about is not lost, as you will see your initial pack again.  In fact, I'd say it's even more impactful.  Knowing what cards are good to take P1 and understanding what will probably be left for P9 sets you up for a lot of success in signal reading/sending as well as understanding how to follow through on P2-8.  You're also going to see a lot more cards in total, so you can develop strategies and synergies in your draft pool that are much less likely to happen in a 4 person pod.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2018, 01:34:32 PM »
-1
Maybe we just have different draft strategy philosophies, (and there's nothing wrong with that), but I disagree with your assessment.

In a 4 person draft, I can look at my first pack and after my first pick, I usually try to identify 3-4 cards I would like to take in the second round (this is assuming 15 card box packs). I do the same for each pack in the first round and essentially keep a running list in my head of the cards I'd want in each pack. In an 8 person pod, I'm getting a brand new pack for the first 8 rounds. It would be pointless to try and figure out which 7 cards are most likely to be gone by the time the pack gets back to me. While I understand the point about getting to look at a wider pool of cards, I won't have any feel for what anyone else is drafting and therefore will be unable to make determinations about the value of cards in the later packs.

While I would be willing to try an 8 person draft at a small tournament (or even just for fun), I would oppose the idea of implementing it at the National tournament.
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Offline Isildur

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2018, 03:45:07 PM »
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8 player draft pods are actually pretty cool. I've done this form of drafting with other card games before.

Justin, I think you're putting too much emphasis on knowing what cards are left in the packs and what other players are picking.

There is still a huge emphasis on deck building. Like JM said knowing that you only get one or two passes at a pack has a element of strategy that is just as strong as 3-4 player drafting.

*I edited this comment pretty extensively. I misread what was said at first! oops!*
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 03:51:57 PM by Isildur »
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Offline SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2018, 05:16:45 PM »
+1
Very glad 2P option has came to drafting as I find it way funner to be honest.  8P pod drafting does not seem like something I personally would be for. I'd much rather it be 4 (or if you have 6 people 3/3, etc.).
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Offline uthminister [BR]

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Re: 2-Player Booster Draft
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2018, 10:55:11 PM »
+1
We played with 3-4 player draft pods and it worked great. Likely what we will be using at Nationals.

 


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