Author Topic: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem  (Read 2601 times)

Offline The Schaefer

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T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« on: August 06, 2017, 08:37:46 PM »
+2
Title basically says it all. No one wants negative player experience to occur in any game and no one wants a deck to be built around it either. JD brought to life a brutal T2 deck this year which prominently featured displeased philistines + Mayhem combo and had decent consistency at doing so early in the game. Although JD didn't win Nats with it he did well in Tournaments with it and regardless of tournament results I feel it's safe to say a deck like that is something Redemption as tried to avoid being played.

The purpose of all this is to try and at least bring up the consideration of the elders trying to "fix" this with a rule change or errata to mayhem again. I don't feel like this deck in particular will see a lot of play in the future as is but it is good enough to see play and place in most levels of tournament play so it probably shouldn't just be dismissed either.

My suggestion is to add a regardless of restriction clause to Mayhem's errata. That should have the least impact on other cards and the game state as a whole and stop the mayhem combo.

Again I'm only bringing this up to help encourage talks among the elders to eliminate a deck that causes negative play experience and because it will likely be overshadowed in talks by the other menace and beautiful deck that is Koney. (Ironically also pioneered by JD for the most part)

Offline The Guardian

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 08:47:55 PM »
+2
Certainly a worthwhile conversation to have. If a change is made, perhaps it could be "regardless of protection or restriction" so Jerusalem Tower isn't a liability to play (though honestly that card just needs an updated version anyway).

Keep in mind though, there are several other ways to eliminate an opponent's hand in both T1 and T2. Nerfing the most powerful (i.e. easiest to pull off) method just means that the second easiest way now becomes the most powerful.
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Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 08:58:20 PM »
+3
Escape lost soul, awake lost soul, crowds lost soul, lawless, imitate. All those times 2 is 10 lost souls out of a potentially 100 card deck. Depending on how you draw them of course, all 5 lost souls could potentially help get out the crowds lost soul to protect your hand from Mayhem first turn. Although I teched for his deck, I took out humble lost souls which completely backfired (forsaken killed me), I never played him, but did not feel like I was sitting down to a loss. I had a very fast deck that theoretically if I got to go first I would still be able to pull out multiple heroes and cards before he Displeases/Mayhem me. I do not think this is a complete NPE deck because a fast offense can recover. This is an awesome deck concept and was shown that it is strong, but did not dominate the tournament. When this does work, and it does often, it leaves the player with the beginning of the game NPE but that means that player either did not tech for this deck, or did not play counters. I understand never wanting to leave the potential for players to have entire games of NPE, but i feel like this deck only starts the game as NPE, then allows you the chance to recover if your deck is fast enough. Maybe monitor this deck or playtest this deck within your playgroup to see just how much NPE it is, and if some sort of counter, either ruling or errata, needs to be made. But as for now I feel like it should be monitored and the Elders/playtesters should respectfully ask someone in their playgroup to run it, or they themself run it against a guinea pig, I mean player.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 09:13:11 PM »
0
All good points--I think the thing to keep in mind is that Mayhem really isn't the "problem" with this deck. I'm fairly certain that JD would agree that Worldly Wisdom (i.e. the method to get DP/Mayhem so quickly) is the thing that makes this deck work. With enough philosopher/scholar ECs, Wordly Wisdom essentially gives you 5 copies of Mayhem and 8 copies of DP (assuming you're running it x4).

If nothing else, we just need to make sure we never print an evil gold Territory class card that can search out Besieging the City and/or Mayhem...  :maul:
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kariusvega

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2017, 09:16:48 PM »
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Yeah I posted a "Worldly Soul" which could, in addition to first turn crowd souls via escape souls, help against many common aggro decks to allow control to have an answer to speed turn 1.

Spoiler (hover to show)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 09:20:00 PM by kariusvega »

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2017, 09:18:19 PM »
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Certainly a worthwhile conversation to have. If a change is made, perhaps it could be "regardless of protection or restriction" so Jerusalem Tower isn't a liability to play (though honestly that card just needs an updated version anyway).

Keep in mind though, there are several other ways to eliminate an opponent's hand in both T1 and T2. Nerfing the most powerful (i.e. easiest to pull off) method just means that the second easiest way now becomes the most powerful.
You are right on every account here. Hand control is fine as a whole to me and I've enjoyed using it as well particularly persistent pestering, but being able to eliminate a hand turn 2 with a good amount of consistency is probably too oppressive and is early enough that it's very hard to counter.

I'll agree that it isn't completely an NPE deck for all of the game but the counters arguement is debatable due to how you have to have the answers before the combo which can be an issue. I also didn't play this deck but did playtest against it a little and it really seems like the chance of recovering is slim. The faster the deck you have the more likely you can recover but you still have to somehow outpace the other offense which is likely faster that what you will be able to set up after you finally draw. Further testing may be needed to determine just how much of a chance decks have to recover or have an answer beforehand not knowing to expect the combo before the game starts.

Offline Red Wing

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2017, 09:22:57 PM »
0
Yeah I posted a "Worldly Soul" which could, in addition to first turn crowd souls via escape souls, help against many common aggro decks to allow control to have an answer to speed turn 1.

Spoiler (hover to show)
So can that be your T1-2P winner's card ::)
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kariusvega

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 09:24:23 PM »
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Yeah I posted a "Worldly Soul" which could, in addition to first turn crowd souls via escape souls, help against many common aggro decks to allow control to have an answer to speed turn 1.

Spoiler (hover to show)
So can that be your T1-2P winner's card ::)

No sir! Lol the PTB can decide the fate of Mayhem Delenda Est. My winner card will definitely be "Hope" we need A New Hope!!  :kenobi:

Offline The Guardian

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 09:26:37 PM »
+2
For the record, both myself and Jayden have recovered from turn 2 or 3 DP/Mayhems so it isn't impossible...  :o
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2017, 09:35:11 PM »
+3
How to beat Mayhem Delenda Est: Ehud.

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2017, 09:38:35 PM »
+1
For the record, both myself and Jayden have recovered from turn 2 or 3 DP/Mayhems so it isn't impossible...  :o
That's definitely a good thing. Like I said I don't expect the deck to be played often or be meta destroying. I did tech against it myself as well. I just figured it should be discussed for the potential NPE aspects and could be been forgotten about discussion wise due to Koney. I just have a feeling that what to do about Koney if anything will be an time consuming topic. Plus there's bound to be many more other lengthy topics.

kariusvega

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2017, 09:38:45 PM »
+1
How to beat Mayhem Delenda Est: Ehud.

Jayden has now beat me 2-0 with Ehud choosing the little guys hehe even after being combo'ed!! He had 0 cards still rescuing! Couldn't get the early game combo on him in both those games though. May look a little different in that case. The first time I played the deck against him was in multi though and it was wreckage. I only expected him to come back with a vengeance :)

FTR T2 Kony destroyed Delenda with 3x redundant hand protection (2x Escape 2x Crowds and Self Control). Not to mention my first game in T2 afterwards I was informed of an unactivated turn 1 7 lamps  ::)

Offline The Guardian

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2017, 09:46:20 PM »
+2
Quote
Jayden has now beat me 2-0 with Ehud choosing the little guys hehe even after being combo'ed!!

I didn't even need Ehud...I just used 5/7 John, the Apocalyptist with a zero card hand...and won a LS.  8)

#NoFear
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: T2 appeal to eliminate negative play experiences from Mayhem
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2017, 09:49:00 PM »
+2
Lol. I ran Ehud for a similar reason as part of my tech against it. I remembered it popping up at the T2 only and made sure to take note. I'm confident it would have been an enjoyable game had I played it. Honestly as a whole I think the T2 Meta right now is pretty amazing.

 


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