Author Topic: Re-examination of NJ  (Read 6628 times)

Offline SEB

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • *****
  • Posts: 356
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re-examination of NJ
« on: June 13, 2018, 08:35:33 AM »
+7
Could we re-open the ruling on New Jerusalem's "simultaneous" clause?
I did a search on the forums, but didnt see much in recent threads. I'm not trying to be silly; i'm curious if changes to the game can afford a change to this ruling (it's happened before).

I may be wrong, but it seemed that the main thrust to change New Jerusalem's ruling from playing with anyone's SoG to only yours was because of the oppressions of 2/3 Liner and choking your land of bondage. If you consider the Lost Souls errata, the rescuing your own LS change, and how the game has refined "timing" so much better in recent years, the case could be made to re-examine a rule change for NJ.

"Simultaneous" simply means "during the same time," but it does not require the starts and finishes to be at the same time. I could say that the "Superbowl" is playing simultaneously as "The Office" even if the "Superbowl" started at 5:00pm and "The Office" at 6:00pm.

There are already situations that demonstrate this to a degree
Spoiler (hover to show)
.

One may interpret the "simultaneous" clause from NJ to do just that and not be conditional on the source or the time, just as long as it happens with the SoG. Because, NJ says "simultaneous" it gives (not blocks) me the ability to play with anyone's SoG. The current ruling is effectively: "Play NJ in the same moment when you play SoG."

I think that changing this back to being truly simultaneous and not "same moment" would have the following positive ramifications (no particular order):
1) Bring a healthy mix to the meta by giving people more options
2) not oppressive at all because you can no longer rescue your own lost souls with dominants
3) Fun-level (it was always extremely fun surprising your opponent with a NJ. This was a cool interaction with dominants that we dont get to have anymore - a pseudo-interrupt).
4) This help some people who cannot afford TSC to be a little more competitive.

In short, i dont see a downside, and for the rule-conscious, it is very easy to interpret "simultaneous" as any time any SoG is being played, because as stated above, it doesnt have to start or end at the same time to be simultaneous.

Check Out Redemption's Exahaustive Search tool:
Lexicon

Offline Gabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+68)
  • *****
  • Posts: 10674
  • From Moses to the prophets, it's all about Him!
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • Land of Redemption
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2018, 09:41:01 AM »
+1
We discussed this in great detail this past seasons. At least a few of the elders would like to see this happen but it has to work within the confines of the game rules. The challenge we haven't found a solution to can be summed up by "Dominant Initiative". Back when you could play NJ of anyone's SoG Dominants were essentially "slap jack".

We didn't see a way to make NJ work under the current rules without making an exception to the rules simply for the sake of making one card better. The game moved away from making "card by card" rulings years ago. We didn't feel altering the framework of Dominant play was worth it just to gain the benefit we wanted.

Maybe someone else will see a way around it that we didn't?
Have you visited the Land of Redemption today?

Offline Xonathan

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+30)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2018, 09:54:28 AM »
0
Maybe codify "simultaneously" in the rules or simply errata NJ to work as intended.   
Look to the Lord and his strength; seek his face always.
1 Chronicles 16:11

Offline sepjazzwarrior

  • Trade Count: (+30)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • The best defense is a fast offense
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2018, 09:54:54 AM »
0
Just errata NJ so that it works how we want it to under the current rules.  Its such a common card that most everyone will know how it works and people wont be surprised by the errata.  make its ability "if SoG was played this phase, you may rescue a LS"  I am all for this change, anything to make NJ better would be great for the game

Offline NathanW

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2018, 09:56:37 AM »
0
Changing "simultaneously" to mean "in the same phase" sounds Interesting.  :2cents:
(\__/) This is a bunny.
(='.'=) I know it's cute.
(")_(")

#CascadeDelendaEst

Offline Josh

  • Trade Count: (+46)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3187
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2018, 10:26:29 AM »
+2
I think I see a solution.  One of the overarching rules in Redemption is that when a special ability is being carried out, no other abilities can activate - even abilities that were triggered by the card that is being carried out must wait until the card is carried out.  (There are a few exceptions, like Instead abilities, but they don't matter for the sake of this discussion.)

NJ is unique in that it has the phrase "Play this card simultaneously..." in it.  I think a simple game rule about the word "Simultaneously", or cards with abilities that allow them to be played simultaneously with other cards, is all we need. 

Simply make the definition of "Simultaneously" something similar to this:

"When a card has an ability that allows it to be played simultaneously with another card, and that other card is played, the card with the simultaneous ability may be played immediately before the triggering card is activated.  The simultaneous ability is now pending, but it cannot activate while the first card is completing.  The triggering card is then carried out, and the simultaneous card will activate once the triggering card has completed."

I see 2 major benefits:

1. NJ becomes playable.
2. It opens up "Simultaneous" abilities for future cards.  These have never been explored due to the headaches caused by NJ in the past.  If we codify simple and logical rules for "simultaneous", I think we just created a new keyword   ;)
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline goalieking87

  • Trade Count: (+51)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 496
    • East Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2018, 10:36:05 AM »
0
I think I see a solution.  One of the overarching rules in Redemption is that when a special ability is being carried out, no other abilities can activate - even abilities that were triggered by the card that is being carried out must wait until the card is carried out.  (There are a few exceptions, like Instead abilities, but they don't matter for the sake of this discussion.)

NJ is unique in that it has the phrase "Play this card simultaneously..." in it.  I think a simple game rule about the word "Simultaneously", or cards with abilities that allow them to be played simultaneously with other cards, is all we need. 

Simply make the definition of "Simultaneously" something similar to this:

"When a card has an ability that allows it to be played simultaneously with another card, and that other card is played, the card with the simultaneous ability may be played immediately before the triggering card is activated.  The simultaneous ability is now pending, but it cannot activate while the first card is completing.  The triggering card is then carried out, and the simultaneous card will activate once the triggering card has completed."

I see 2 major benefits:

1. NJ becomes playable.
2. It opens up "Simultaneous" abilities for future cards.  These have never been explored due to the headaches caused by NJ in the past.  If we codify simple and logical rules for "simultaneous", I think we just created a new keyword   ;)

#CrowdsChoice


http://www.cactusforums.com/new-card-ideas/new-dominant-idea-crowd's-choice/msg575179/#msg575179
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:51:23 AM by goalieking87 »

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12343
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2018, 10:38:01 AM »
0
I like where your idea is going though I just have two thoughts.

--We'll still have conflicts such as player A using SoG to rescue one LS and then players B and C both trying to play New Jerusalem to rescue the only other LS on the table (after SoG resolves).

--What other card types besides dominants would even work as "simultaneously" abilities? I suppose maybe TC placed enhancements (i.e. Gam's Speech, Treasures of War, Paying Taxes et al)?
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Xonathan

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+30)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2018, 10:40:49 AM »
0
I like where your idea is going though I just have two thoughts.

--We'll still have conflicts such as player A using SoG to rescue one LS and then players B and C both trying to play New Jerusalem to rescue the only other LS on the table (after SoG resolves).

--What other card types besides dominants would even work as "simultaneously" abilities? I suppose maybe TC placed enhancements (i.e. Gam's Speech, Treasures of War, Paying Taxes et al)?

Dom initiative kinda solves your first point. Player A gets to play a dom first. If the game doesn't end the it goes in order of who asked for dom int first.

Edit: Assuming its Player A's turn
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:49:37 AM by Xonathan »
Look to the Lord and his strength; seek his face always.
1 Chronicles 16:11

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12343
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2018, 10:55:27 AM »
0
Unless I misunderstood though, the idea was that "simultaneous" overrides dominant initiative?

Player A has the turn and Player C has the only 2 LS on the table. Player A plays SoG to rescue the first LS and intends to continue by playing TSC to get back SoG and rescue the other. However, Player B drops NJ simultaneously with SoG and now suddenly he gets to grab the other LS. While I wouldn't mind seeing TSC lose some of its advantage, we would have two different sets of rules for dominants (ones that said "simultaneously" and ones that didn't) and I'm not sure that's where we want to go.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Xonathan

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+30)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2018, 11:05:12 AM »
0
Well one only Dom so far has simultaneously as part of the ability. I just wouldn't print anymore doms like that. 
Look to the Lord and his strength; seek his face always.
1 Chronicles 16:11

Offline Josh

  • Trade Count: (+46)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3187
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2018, 11:21:39 AM »
0
I like where your idea is going though I just have two thoughts.

--We'll still have conflicts such as player A using SoG to rescue one LS and then players B and C both trying to play New Jerusalem to rescue the only other LS on the table (after SoG resolves).

For multiplayer (and pretty much just for the scenario you describe), there would have to be clarifying rules for multiple instances of players playing "simultaneous" ability cards. 

The easiest solution is turn order - Player A plays SoG, Player B (to his left) and player C (across from Player A) both want to play New Jerusalem to rescue the final LS.  Player B's NJ wins. 

And I think it's completely reasonable for Player C to say "I'm going to play NJ with Player A's SoG unless Player B plays NJ", to which Player B says "I'm playing NJ" (and he gets to play NJ) or "I'm not playing NJ" (and Player C gets to play NJ, even if Player B later changes his mind and tries to play NJ while Player A's SoG is resolving).

--What other card types besides dominants would even work as "simultaneously" abilities?

I have a few ideas.  Don't forget, if Simultaneous becomes a keyword, you could even make cards that can be played simultaneously with opponent's cards or abilities.   

Like, maybe a new Swords To Plowshares that can be played simultaneously with an opponent's evil weapon.  Or maybe a new Cast Out Demons that can be played simultaneously with an Orange enhancement.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 11:27:16 AM by Josh »
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12343
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2018, 11:23:31 AM »
+1
Well one only Dom so far has simultaneously as part of the ability. I just wouldn't print anymore doms like that. 

Which then brings us back to the "one ruling for one card" issue  ;)

Believe me, I'm one of the Elders who wants to see NJ playable again, but I don't want us to take one step forward and two steps back.  8)
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Xonathan

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+30)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2018, 11:31:46 AM »
0
Well one only Dom so far has simultaneously as part of the ability. I just wouldn't print anymore doms like that. 

Which then brings us back to the "one ruling for one card" issue  ;)

Believe me, I'm one of the Elders who wants to see NJ playable again, but I don't want us to take one step forward and two steps back.  8)
I see your point but this is a pretty important card. Plus, like Josh mentioned "simultaneous" special abilities can be printed for everything else not a dom. If simultaneous abilities are not going to be printed in the future, I personally would sacrifice taking two steps back for a card this important. I see this basically requiring the same amount of effort it took to ban the two liner which improved the game just like this would do.
Look to the Lord and his strength; seek his face always.
1 Chronicles 16:11

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12343
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2018, 11:39:06 AM »
0
I agree, and I'm definitely not trying to shoot this idea down. As Gabe mentioned earlier, we did have extensive discussion on this idea so I'm just sharing some of the points/issues that came up then.

One idea we didn't really consider was an errata--with the potential of a future set rotation and the ability to reprint New Jerusalem on the new card face, perhaps that is a direction to consider. How should an errata-ed NJ be worded?
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Xonathan

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+30)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2018, 11:44:02 AM »
0
I can see two immediate options...

1. Have a lost soul rescue that can also be used when an opponent play SoG.

2. Only have NJ rescue when you play your own SoG.
Look to the Lord and his strength; seek his face always.
1 Chronicles 16:11

Offline sepjazzwarrior

  • Trade Count: (+30)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • The best defense is a fast offense
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2018, 11:46:13 AM »
+3
Errata to say: if SoG was played this phase, you may rescue a LS

Offline jesse

  • Trade Count: (+100)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1169
  • God is love. - 1 John 4:8
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • First And All
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2018, 12:17:07 PM »
0
I would love to see NJ able to be used along with the opponent's Son of God, as well as insert itself between a SoG-TSC drop with the "simultaneous" keyword- it would be so much better!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 12:23:25 PM by jesse »
Love is the flame of God, Who is love and an all-consuming fire!- Song. 8:6-7, 1 Jn. 4:8, Deut. 4:24

Offline SEB

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • *****
  • Posts: 356
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2018, 12:56:45 PM »
0
I like where your idea is going though I just have two thoughts.

--We'll still have conflicts such as player A using SoG to rescue one LS and then players B and C both trying to play New Jerusalem to rescue the only other LS on the table (after SoG resolves).

--What other card types besides dominants would even work as "simultaneously" abilities? I suppose maybe TC placed enhancements (i.e. Gam's Speech, Treasures of War, Paying Taxes et al)?

similar to what has been shared:
If Josh's "rule" suffices as a temporary starting point, then Player A plays SoG, both Players B and C (up to N) immediately have a "simultaneous" trigger to play NJ, with player's B adding then player's C adding. Once all cards have been added, follow normal resolution rules with multiple abilities trying to resolve at once.

There has been some great discussion, guys! thanks so much for the input!
Check Out Redemption's Exahaustive Search tool:
Lexicon

Offline YeshuaIsLord

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 94
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
    • My Facebook
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2018, 01:18:02 PM »
+1
Could someone explain the issue with few words in a simplified manner?
What's even the point of NJ now that we have TSC? There is no reason for choosing NJ over TSC or am I mistaken? I think that's pretty sad that NJ became so much weaker..

Offline SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+45)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1178
  • T1-2P 2003 National Champion
    • -
    • Southeast Region
    • Redemption CCG FL
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2018, 01:22:07 PM »
0
"May play with SoG simultaneously, if multiple players are playing simultaneously, the one who can do the most back flips gets to play the card first."

Add some athletic ability to the game!  This would of coarse always count me out from playing NJ first as well.
Redemption FL - Massive Redemption Resource, Check it Out!

Offline SEB

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • *****
  • Posts: 356
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2018, 01:22:45 PM »
+1
Could someone explain the issue with few words in a simplified manner?
What's even the point of NJ now that we have TSC? There is no reason for choosing NJ over TSC or am I mistaken? I think that's pretty sad that NJ became so much weaker..

Well, in theory, if NJ was able to be played with any player's SoG (and not ONLY yours), it could be better/equal to TSC in some decks. I have a deck in mind that I would rather play NJ IF i had the option of playing it with any SoG. It's very punishing if you draw a NJ at beginning but cant play it until you draw your last card.

Essentially, the discussion is a rule-Symantec that has a great deal of importance for future design space.
Check Out Redemption's Exahaustive Search tool:
Lexicon

Offline sepjazzwarrior

  • Trade Count: (+30)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • The best defense is a fast offense
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2018, 01:29:33 PM »
+2
Could someone explain the issue with few words in a simplified manner?
What's even the point of NJ now that we have TSC? There is no reason for choosing NJ over TSC or am I mistaken? I think that's pretty sad that NJ became so much weaker..

There are several cards in the game that can search for NJ, while nothing that searches for TSC.  Plus not everyone can afford TSC, while NJ is widely available.  Making NJ better gives people choice and helps younger/poorer players be competitive. 

Offline jesse

  • Trade Count: (+100)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1169
  • God is love. - 1 John 4:8
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • First And All
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2018, 01:30:06 PM »
+1
Quote from: YeshuaIsLord
Could someone explain the issue with few words in a simplified manner?
What's even the point of NJ now that we have TSC? There is no reason for choosing NJ over TSC or am I mistaken? I think that's pretty sad that NJ became so much weaker..

About the only negative to TSC is that it can be stopped/hindered by anti-search abilities like Hezekiah's Signet Ring. New Jerusalem was boosted somewhat in the Revelation of John set by New Jerusalem/Bride of Christ, One of Seven, and The Woman with Child (which also boosts TSC), but it definitely is much weaker than TSC as we all know. I agree that it is sad and I'm definitely hoping that something will be done through this thread!  :)
Love is the flame of God, Who is love and an all-consuming fire!- Song. 8:6-7, 1 Jn. 4:8, Deut. 4:24

Offline Josh

  • Trade Count: (+46)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3187
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Re-examination of NJ
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2018, 01:56:22 PM »
0
Quote from: YeshuaIsLord
Could someone explain the issue with few words in a simplified manner?
What's even the point of NJ now that we have TSC? There is no reason for choosing NJ over TSC or am I mistaken? I think that's pretty sad that NJ became so much weaker..

About the only negative to TSC is that it can be stopped/hindered by anti-search abilities like Hezekiah's Signet Ring. New Jerusalem was boosted somewhat in the Revelation of John set by New Jerusalem/Bride of Christ, One of Seven, and The Woman with Child (which also boosts TSC), but it definitely is much weaker than TSC as we all know. I agree that it is sad and I'm definitely hoping that something will be done through this thread!  :)

I'm also all for nerfing TSC, but sadly, boosting NJ is not the best way to go about that. 

Now, if TSC gets an errata where it can't be in the same deck as SoG (instead of NJ), and NJ can be played with other players' SoGs...  That would be more interesting  ;)
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal