Author Topic: What is the intended route for a new player?  (Read 762 times)

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1742
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
What is the intended route for a new player?
« on: February 27, 2019, 03:31:23 PM »
+6
This is a question I've been struggling with and I wanted to get the product designer's opinion so I can better help potential new players. When you design sets, cards, and other products like starter decks, what is your imagined route for a person who hears about the game at a conference shop, online, or bookstore and buys a starter? Is this something that is planned at all?

The problem I've encountered getting new players into the game is that there is a massive leap between buying a starter deck and obtaining the cards necessary to build even a basic version of any other deck, especially one that is capable of going to a local tournament without getting facerolled every single game. Third party card resellers have their prebuilt decks that help with this issue somewhat but the vast majority of new players should not be expected to locate these products and rely on them for the basis of their journey into the game. As far as I'm aware, there are two options for a card game to facilitate new player entry into a card game and I strongly believe that implementing one or both of these would greatly increase retention rate of new players and the growth of the game.

A. Design sets with one or two decks that can be built in a basic functional form (more powerful than starter decks) using only cards from that set. The decks don't have to include a full suite of synergistic support cards like artifacts, forts, and sites but there should enough cards to fully support a couple archetypes. This means one or two sets of 8-10 Heroes and 5-7 enhancements split between two colors that can form a basic offense lineup (similar to two-color offenses in starter decks) and the same for defense. Imagine designing a high power level starter deck and the just distributing the cards inside booster packs alongside the other cards. This means a player who decides to invest in the game buy just buying the most recent packs (This is what nearly every MtG player is conditioned to do and this has been the instinct of every MtG player I've gotten even remotely interested in Redemption) will be able to actually form a functional deck out of the ~$100 they just spent instead of being stuck with a pile of cards designed to supplement existing decks made from cards spread across almost every set in the game's history that the new player has no immediate access to. I know this was sort of attempted with the Tin sets and while I agree that the Tin distribution was flawed I strongly believe the offense and defense "packages" were right on track and just belong sprinkled into regular booster pack sets. (Site note, this sort of design also drastically increases the quality of booster draft)

B. Sell prebuilt, tournament ready decks made entirely of existing cards (Like third party resellers are doing) officially through Cactus. This option has the added benefit of being a vehicle to reprint old cards that you want to exist in a post-rotation world and updating them to the new card face. The reason this is a superior option over relying on the already existing third part decks is that the visibility and credibility of marketing it as an official Cactus product (which is very impactful, especially for a new player who knows nothing about community sites and resources beyond Googling something like "Redemption card game decks" (which shows Cactus as the first result and Three Lions at the very bottom of the page) and secondly allows the decks to be made at a higher power level and less cost than the third party prebuilts. Again, similar to the first option these decks don't need to be competitively viable, they just need to be tournament playable and can be made with two colors and similar character/enhancement ratios that encourage player to buy multiple and swap the packages around. These decks would provide jumping off points for many of the archetypes in the game that right now are scattered across countless sets and can only be built by new players that know a benevolent Redemption veteran personally who they can trade all these staples from. The summary premise of these prebuilt decks is they are a way to pull archetype staples from across all of Redemption's old sets into a single, new player accessible product that enables the new player to effectively utilize the current shotgun style of boost pack cards that forces you to have a rather solid collection built up to make any use of.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 03:44:39 PM by Kevinthedude »

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1742
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2019, 03:31:39 PM »
+5
(Ran out of characters in the OP)

I know both of these options require a lot of time and resources to bring to reality but frankly I believe without one of these things (or some similar idea that equally facilitates new player investment) being implemented, the game will inevitably stagnate as old players leave the tournament community faster than new players can join it. I've personally experienced this in the Kansas playground. Out of all the players that have either shown up to one of our tournaments after not playing the game for a long time, been converted from another card game, or were just friends/church family members that I've introduced the game to, every single one that I've put together a spare, semi-optimized but far from perfect deck for (these decks were about the power level I'm suggesting for the prebuilts in option B.) has stayed involved in the game while every player who tried to start a collection or make their own decks from starters and recent packs has given up because frankly it's a ridiculously daunting task to get into any card game let alone one like Redemption that has virtually no real path for a new player to do so without direct support from an existing veteran.

I would love to hear that one or both of these options is already being worked on or will be but if even if the answer from the elders or Rob is that you would happily implement these things if you could afford the man-power investment, I will happily organize a community effort to design the cards for option A and/or the decklists for option B. My original plan was actually to skip the discussion thread and just design the cards and make the decklists first and then present the ideas with proof-of-concepts in hand but I figured I should probably make sure these solutions are actually filling a need the elder team recognizes as a reality.

Edit: Followup clarification about option A; two phases of the "same set" are functionally two completely separate sets as far as new players are concerned and being able to build functional decks by combining cards from each does not count as accomplishing option A. I think a simply way to improve this would be to combine similar themes together within a phase instead of evenly dividing them between phases (E.g, all the Persian cards from phase 2 should have been printed in phase 1 or vice versa). This does mean that between the phases the themes supported in the first phase will be heavily stacked but I actually see this as a good thing since it diversifies the meta even more throughout the year and both phases will be released before each Nats either way.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 03:52:04 PM by Kevinthedude »

Offline Master Q

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Fearless #BanSam
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2019, 05:27:08 PM »
+1
I'll gladly take either option but if I had to pick I'd say option B would be the best for newer players. More than anything, I would really like to see that done.

I know doing any sort of new set anything is a massive timesink for all parties involved, so making balanced decks that can compete which are themselves comprised of even 50% or so completely "new" cards is a feat that I can only imagine would take upwards of a year or more. From a practical standpoint, given Redemption's miniscule size, it's bordering on unfeasible.

Regarding A, of course the horse is beaten bloody by this point, but IMO one great step to do now would be to stop including older cards in the newest card packages. Imagine: You have the Legacy Rare take the place of a common in the pack, increase the number of LRs per box to exactly 6 (1 per 3 boxes), increase the number of LRs per set (around 30 or so), increase the number of URs per set (roughly 9), increase the number of URs per box (about 2 or 3), and have the rest be cards solely from that set.

Is this a lot of work? You bet. Would there be a bigger cost for doing this? Probably. But that would do so much to give newer players and older players more value right off the bat, rather than just more value for newer players.
Absentmindedly glancing at this unimpressive signature fills you with determination.

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1742
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2019, 05:34:22 PM »
+1
I'll gladly take either option but if I had to pick I'd say option B would be the best for newer players. More than anything, I would really like to see that done.

I know doing any sort of new set anything is a massive timesink for all parties involved, so making balanced decks that can compete which are themselves comprised of even 50% or so completely "new" cards is a feat that I can only imagine would take upwards of a year or more. From a practical standpoint, given Redemption's miniscule size, it's bordering on unfeasible.

Regarding A, of course the horse is beaten bloody by this point, but IMO one great step to do now would be to stop including older cards in the newest card packages. Imagine: You have the Legacy Rare take the place of a common in the pack, increase the number of LRs per box to exactly 6 (1 per 3 boxes), increase the number of LRs per set (around 30 or so), increase the number of URs per set (roughly 9), increase the number of URs per box (about 2 or 3), and have the rest be cards solely from that set.

Is this a lot of work? You bet. Would there be a bigger cost for doing this? Probably. But that would do so much to give newer players and older players more value right off the bat, rather than just more value for newer players.

Agreed, other than option B being unfeasible. They don't even need to be 50% new cards, in fact they'd almost be better off with mostly old cards since those are the cards new players have trouble accessing. I have access to a small pool of new players and pretty much at least 1 of every relevant card older than the last year or two so as long as an Elder can tell me they are open to printing decks like this I can start developing and playtesting the decks immediately and have drafts of several decks done in a few months.

I also do want to stress that while changing packs to be 100% new cards is ideal, it isn't necessary for option A to be put into practice. I know Redemption leadership seems to push back on the frequently request 100% new card packs but I can see a couple valid reasons for that, mostly from a business standpoint, and I so if that isn't an option on the table the set design can still be altered for the better using the existing pack structure.

Besides this I do want to throw this in down here while I'm making a post critical of the design team, the individual card design has continued to improve and I am very satisfied with the actual function of the cards currently being printed. Just because I see things that could be done better regarding distribution and NPE doesn't mean I don't see and appreciate the high quality work you guys have been doing on a completely volunteer basis. I know I tend to be vocal about some things, often critiques, and I want to clarify every criticism and suggestion I ever make is fueled by a desire to do what I can for the game that I love and that your sacrificed time is remembered and appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 05:42:02 PM by Kevinthedude »

Online The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12013
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2019, 05:46:31 PM »
+1
Quote
A. Design sets with one or two decks that can be built in a basic functional form (more powerful than starter decks) using only cards from that set.

A tournament worthy Revelation Angels offense can be completely built from RoJ and an I/J starter deck (basically for the dominants and Angelic Guidance).

A tournament worthy Flood Survivors offense can be built completely from CoW & FoM with the addition of a handful of extra cards (i.e. dominants and one of the Arks).

I'm not disputing your overall point of trying to make the game more new-player friendly, but at least with option A I think you've overlooked several viable themes that are pretty much contained within 1 or 2 newer sets.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1742
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2019, 05:59:39 PM »
0
Quote
A. Design sets with one or two decks that can be built in a basic functional form (more powerful than starter decks) using only cards from that set.

A tournament worthy Revelation Angels offense can be completely built from RoJ and an I/J starter deck (basically for the dominants and Angelic Guidance).

A tournament worthy Flood Survivors offense can be built completely from CoW & FoM with the addition of a handful of extra cards (i.e. dominants and one of the Arks).

I'm not disputing your overall point of trying to make the game more new-player friendly, but at least with option A I think you've overlooked several viable themes that are pretty much contained within 1 or 2 newer sets.

Rev Angels does count and that was great. Unfortunately it's the exception rather than the rule and it absolutely needs the starter deck cards to function. Most themes don't have semi-current starter deck cards to fill out their deck with (which is a big reason there should be new starters in other brigades)

Flood survivors doesn't really count (although its better than nothing) in my book for two reasons. Mainly because it's spread over two separate sets and the most important aspect of a design choice like this is to ensure that if a player guys a box of packs from one set, they can build a semi function deck from only those cards. Secondly it's an extremely synergistic and self-reliant strategy which means it doesn't mesh well with other brigades or even non-flood survivor blue cards. It's a wonderful, well designed deck archetype that really only works if you have every one of the pieces put together.

The Persian defense and Prophet offense were examples from PoC that were extremely close, it just would have needed all the Persian cards to be clumped together in either phase 1 or 2 and a few more green cards moved from phase 1 to 2.

Offline jesse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1050
  • God is love. - 1 John 4:8
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2019, 06:01:23 PM »
+1
Also don't forget about YTG's Contender Decks!
Love is the flame of the Lord God, Who is an all-consuming fire!- Song of Songs 8:6-7, Hebrews 12:29

Offline Kor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 660
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2019, 06:03:54 PM »
+1
Quote
A. Design sets with one or two decks that can be built in a basic functional form (more powerful than starter decks) using only cards from that set.


A tournament worthy Revelation Angels offense can be completely built from RoJ and an I/J starter deck (basically for the dominants and Angelic Guidance).

A tournament worthy Flood Survivors offense can be built completely from CoW & FoM with the addition of a handful of extra cards (i.e. dominants and one of the Arks).

I'm not disputing your overall point of trying to make the game more new-player friendly, but at least with option A I think you've overlooked several viable themes that are pretty much contained within 1 or 2 newer sets.


I agree with this, most new sets do have focus themes that you can build a competent deck around.  Also, all of the new packs contain cards from older sets which can be used to strengthen these themes - especially the RoA/FooF cards.  I had a pretty solid start to a Babylonian defense and red offense after just drafting PoC once. http://www.cactusforums.com/other-tournament-winners/my-best-2-player-booster-deck-yet/


Life is what you make of it.

Offline Sean

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3626
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2019, 07:18:44 PM »
+2
I feel like either of these ideas would be awesome, however; I also feel like they would each only be successful/monetarily possible if there were already a larger base of current players that could be counted on for "guaranteed" revenue for Cactus.  Each of these ideas would require much more cost from a production standpoint so I see that as a big wall that Cactus would have to figure out how to get over or around.

I can also say that I definitely feel like it is very hard to get started from 0 cards and that's with having played for a very long time previous to my 10 years of not playing(having sold or given away my entire collection).  The cost of entry is very high.  Must have cards like The Second Coming are valued over $100.00 so it is nearly impossible to get one unless you happen to draw it from a pack.  There are people willing to trade but I don't have the cards they want in return that come anywhere close to the value of The Second Coming.  I was gifted New Jerusalem so not All Hope (is) Lost but  you get my point.

I was extremely fortunate to have so many people reach out to me who were willing to just give me cards.  I had even said no to at least 2 people because I already had 3 packages on their way to my front door, at no cost to me.  So while I definitely think the 'cost of admission' really needs to be brought lower, I also really feel like the current player base really can and does shine through for new players in the form of gifting them cards.  When I had so many offers when I decided to return to the game I really felt like I was reaping what I had sown a decade+ ago.  I was one of those players who had thousands of cards, could build any deck (sometimes more than once) in both T1 and T2.  At that point I would routinely give cards away because I simply didn't need them.  I fully plan on doing the same if I ever reach that point again (not sure I will or not). 

As long as there are people like those who reached out to me it will make it easier for new players but that also doesn't create any revenue for Cactus.  I really think this is about increasing publicity while also decreasing cost of entry.  Redemption is great but the biggest thing that is the same now as it was when I was first active is that marketing is tough sledding.  In some ways, this will always be true for anything denoted as Christian but there is a reason why companies spend millions of dollars on Super Bowl commercials.  They know that there will be many people watching to see what they're selling.  I'm not suggesting Redemption do that (now or ever really) but the premise is true.  Redemption is not easy to google and it also isn't easy to search on Amazon.  The bookstores I've seen it in do not display it prominently and I've never seen it in a secular location. (not that it should be or needs to be)  It isn't in the Christian book store magazines either.  The one thing that Cactus still does, as far as I can tell, is go to different expos/trade shows.  This is awesome and I hope they never stop.

I've rambled on long enough I think.
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Offline Sean

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3626
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2019, 12:59:36 PM »
0
It would be cool if Cactus sold full decks that were copies of Nationals winning decks for type 1.  There would only be 1 or 2 per year and they would, in theory, still be strong decks in the subsequent 1-2 years even without any changes.  You could buy one of these "winner" decks and some of the most recent set released and have a decent chance at most lower level tournaments. (lack of experience not withstanding)
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Offline Watchman

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1891
  • Your Turn Games Owner
    • -
    • Southeast Region
    • Your Turn Games
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2019, 01:07:01 PM »
+1
It would be cool if Cactus sold full decks that were copies of Nationals winning decks for type 1.  There would only be 1 or 2 per year and they would, in theory, still be strong decks in the subsequent 1-2 years even without any changes.  You could buy one of these "winner" decks and some of the most recent set released and have a decent chance at most lower level tournaments. (lack of experience not withstanding)

It's funny you say that because I have plans on selling the winning decks from Nats, and probably the different regionals as Champion Decks (part of my Custom Constructs line of pre-made decks) at a discount price.  Keep your eyes peeled for these to be released really soon! 

https://www.yourturngames.biz/collections/champion-decks

And a side note regarding this thread: Cactus doesn't need to be the only retailer players can purchase decks from.  The fact is you can't purchase them through Cactus anyways, and I seriously doubt Rob is going to get into that market, particularly since it's already covered by Your Turn Games and Three Lions Gaming, which I know Rob supports/encourages.  As YTG and TLG support the Redemption community by making Redemption products affordable and accessible, I would ask that the Redemption community also support us by sending newer players our way to help get them into the game more easily and affordably with our pre-made decks/constructed offenses and defenses.
Purchase Prophecies of Christ today!

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1742
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2019, 01:10:47 PM »
0
And a side note regarding this thread: Cactus doesn't need to be the only retailer players can purchase decks from.  The fact is you can't purchase them through Cactus anyways, and I seriously doubt Rob is going to get into that market, particularly since it's already covered by Your Turn Games and Three Lions Gaming, which I know Rob supports/encourages.  As YTG and TLG support the Redemption community by making Redemption products affordable and accessible, I would ask that the Redemption community also support us by sending newer players our way to help get them into the game more easily and affordably with our pre-made decks/constructed offenses and defenses.

I appreciate the services you and Travis provide and I believe your decks are very helpful for new players that have an existing player to guide them but the concerns I'm raising in this thread are mainly for new players who do not have any contact with the existing Redemption community yet and the unfortunate fact is that it's drastically less likely for this kind of new player to find or trust third party deck sellers than it is for them to find and trust such a product on Cactus' official site.

Edit: This issue actually could be helped a lot by putting a section on the Redemption section of Cactus' site linking and officially endorsing YTG and TLG decks for new players looking for such products. This could go somewhere under Links & Resources similar to the Land of Redemption link.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 01:15:04 PM by Kevinthedude »

Offline Watchman

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1891
  • Your Turn Games Owner
    • -
    • Southeast Region
    • Your Turn Games
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2019, 01:23:48 PM »
+1
And a side note regarding this thread: Cactus doesn't need to be the only retailer players can purchase decks from.  The fact is you can't purchase them through Cactus anyways, and I seriously doubt Rob is going to get into that market, particularly since it's already covered by Your Turn Games and Three Lions Gaming, which I know Rob supports/encourages.  As YTG and TLG support the Redemption community by making Redemption products affordable and accessible, I would ask that the Redemption community also support us by sending newer players our way to help get them into the game more easily and affordably with our pre-made decks/constructed offenses and defenses.

I appreciate the services you and Travis provide and I believe your decks are very helpful for new players that have an existing player to guide them but the concerns I'm raising in this thread are mainly for new players who do not have any contact with the existing Redemption community yet and the unfortunate fact is that it's drastically less likely for this kind of new player to find or trust third party deck sellers than it is for them to find and trust such a product on Cactus' official site.

I understand what you're saying but the truth of the matter is Redemption isn't even a well-known game anyways.  Just about every serious or casual card player/board gamer, or churchgoer for that matter, I've told about Redemption has either never heard of it or had only a smidgen of knowledge about hearing about it in passing. 

The biggest problem with Redemption not being well-known is the lack of advertisement.  Since Cactus doesn't advertise or sell Redemption in a larger retail capacity (i.e., Walmart), then the existence of the game is not well-known.  When someone does hear about it it's usually by word of mouth by an existing Redemption player.  At that point there would be no reason why that existing player couldn't refer them to YTG or TLG, in addition to Cactus. 

And I can attest that I've had people from around the world locate my website and purchase product from me.  So to say that new players are much less likely to trust a third party deck seller is simply not really true, particularly since Travis' and my website are ON the Cactus website.  The fact that our sites are listed on Cactus is a show of trust and a form of endorsement from Cactus to all players/customers, new or old, concerning our respective business.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 01:41:11 PM by Watchman »
Purchase Prophecies of Christ today!

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1742
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2019, 01:42:49 PM »
0
And a side note regarding this thread: Cactus doesn't need to be the only retailer players can purchase decks from.  The fact is you can't purchase them through Cactus anyways, and I seriously doubt Rob is going to get into that market, particularly since it's already covered by Your Turn Games and Three Lions Gaming, which I know Rob supports/encourages.  As YTG and TLG support the Redemption community by making Redemption products affordable and accessible, I would ask that the Redemption community also support us by sending newer players our way to help get them into the game more easily and affordably with our pre-made decks/constructed offenses and defenses.

I appreciate the services you and Travis provide and I believe your decks are very helpful for new players that have an existing player to guide them but the concerns I'm raising in this thread are mainly for new players who do not have any contact with the existing Redemption community yet and the unfortunate fact is that it's drastically less likely for this kind of new player to find or trust third party deck sellers than it is for them to find and trust such a product on Cactus' official site.

I understand what you're saying but the truth of the matter is Redemption isn't even a well-known game anyways.  Just about every serious or casual card player/board gamer, or churchgoer for that matter, I've told about Redemption has either never heard of it or had only a smidgen of knowledge about hearing about it in passing.  The biggest problem with Redemption not being well-known is the lack of advertisement.  Since Cactus doesn't advertise or sell Redemption in a larger retail capacity (i.e., Walmart), then the existence of the game is not well-known.  When someone does hear about it it's usually by word of mouth by an existing Redemption player.  At that point there would be no reason why that existing player couldn't refer them to YTG or TLG, in addition to Cactus.  And I can attest that I've had people from around the world locate my website and purchase product from me.  So to say that new players are much less likely to trust a third party deck seller is simply not really true, particularly since Travis' and my website are ON the Cactus website.  The fact that our sites are listed on Cactus is a show of trust and a form of endorsement from Cactus to all players/customers, new or old, concerning our respective business.

I agree advertising would help a lot but advertising can only do so much if most of the new players are discouraged from investing in the game beyond starter decks. The suggestions in the post are things I believe pave the way for advertising to be significantly more effective. As for the decks, I was not aware they were listed on the Cactus site already. After looking around a bit I still don't know where they are listed. As I mentioned in my edit on the previous post, I would be just as happy with Cactus linking YTG and TLG decks in a prominent position directing players who have mastered the starter decks to them as I would be with Cactus making their own version.

Online The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12013
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2019, 02:17:27 PM »
0
At the bottom of the main Redemption page on the Cactus site there is a "Links and Resources" list that includes TLG, YTG, LoR, Covenant Games and a couple others.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1742
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2019, 02:25:05 PM »
0
At the bottom of the main Redemption page on the Cactus site there is a "Links and Resources" list that includes TLG, YTG, LoR, Covenant Games and a couple others.

That's technically better than nothing but hardly somewhere that someone is likely to look when searching for decks to buy. I think a blurb in the main Links & Resources page (The one that lists the boards, tournament info, the Tabernacle promo deal, etc) would be a lot more useful to someone stumbling through the site.

Offline EmJayBee83

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 5360
  • Ha! It's funny because the squirrel gets dead.
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • mjb Games
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2019, 02:29:51 PM »
+1
It would be cool if Cactus sold full decks that were copies of Nationals winning decks for type 1.  There would only be 1 or 2 per year and they would, in theory, still be strong decks in the subsequent 1-2 years even without any changes.  You could buy one of these "winner" decks and some of the most recent set released and have a decent chance at most lower level tournaments. (lack of experience not withstanding)
Fantasy Flight does this for World Champion decks for some of their LCGs.  To entice folks that have been playing for a bit, they create special edition full-bleed versions of the cards in the decks.

The issue here is that Redemption is not an LCG. As long as Cactus is dependent on having chase UR's this is not economically feasible.  Why buy multiple boxes of packs or go to TLG and drop $300 to get Three Woes, The Second Coming, and Mayhem when you can just get the 2018 T1-2P 1st Place deck?

I have plans on selling the winning decks from Nats, and probably the different regionals as Champion Decks (part of my Custom Constructs line of pre-made decks) at a discount price.  Keep your eyes peeled for these to be released really soon!
And how much of a discount are you thinking, 'cause just the three cards mentioned above are over $200 at YTG as singles?

Offline Master Q

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Fearless #BanSam
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2019, 02:54:47 PM »
+3
And a side note regarding this thread: Cactus doesn't need to be the only retailer players can purchase decks from.  The fact is you can't purchase them through Cactus anyways, and I seriously doubt Rob is going to get into that market, particularly since it's already covered by Your Turn Games and Three Lions Gaming, which I know Rob supports/encourages.  As YTG and TLG support the Redemption community by making Redemption products affordable and accessible, I would ask that the Redemption community also support us by sending newer players our way to help get them into the game more easily and affordably with our pre-made decks/constructed offenses and defenses.


From this very similar thread http://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-card-play/re-we-need-a-new-starter-deck/:

There are no plans to print starters in the near future. I don't quite understand why they are needed when their are products that meet your request already available on the secondary market. Why do they need to be "official"?


Because only Cactus can reprint cards for the express purpose of reintroducing them to the game with the new format, erratas, updated wording, different versions, etc, in a quality that is as close to guaranteed mint as you can get, for a reasonable price. There are so many advantages to doing this "officially" that the secondary market simply cannot offer.

Also, there is the fact that new starter decks will support Cactus and Redemption directly. You keep I/J for beginners, then release a set of 2-6 "advanced starters", for players who want more of a challenge or want more competitive cards right out the gate. Why would anyone not want that?


My thought on this is unchanged since then.
Absentmindedly glancing at this unimpressive signature fills you with determination.

Offline Watchman

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1891
  • Your Turn Games Owner
    • -
    • Southeast Region
    • Your Turn Games
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2019, 04:35:14 PM »
+1
I have plans on selling the winning decks from Nats, and probably the different regionals as Champion Decks (part of my Custom Constructs line of pre-made decks) at a discount price.  Keep your eyes peeled for these to be released really soon!
And how much of a discount are you thinking, 'cause just the three cards mentioned above are over $200 at YTG as singles?

Stay tuned. 😉
Purchase Prophecies of Christ today!

Offline EmJayBee83

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 5360
  • Ha! It's funny because the squirrel gets dead.
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • mjb Games
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2019, 05:13:40 PM »
+2
I have plans on selling the winning decks from Nats, and probably the different regionals as Champion Decks (part of my Custom Constructs line of pre-made decks) at a discount price.  Keep your eyes peeled for these to be released really soon!
And how much of a discount are you thinking, 'cause just the three cards mentioned above are over $200 at YTG as singles?

Stay tuned. 😉
If it is what a newer player is willing to pay (say $50 or less), sign me up.    :).

And if you wanted to send me Lackey deck lists for your pre-built decks, I would be happy to add them to the decks section of the Lackey plugin.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 05:16:21 PM by EmJayBee83 »

Offline Watchman

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1891
  • Your Turn Games Owner
    • -
    • Southeast Region
    • Your Turn Games
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2019, 05:45:07 PM »
0
I have plans on selling the winning decks from Nats, and probably the different regionals as Champion Decks (part of my Custom Constructs line of pre-made decks) at a discount price.  Keep your eyes peeled for these to be released really soon!
And how much of a discount are you thinking, 'cause just the three cards mentioned above are over $200 at YTG as singles?

Stay tuned. 😉
If it is what a newer player is willing to pay (say $50 or less), sign me up.    :).

And if you wanted to send me Lackey deck lists for your pre-built decks, I would be happy to add them to the decks section of the Lackey plugin.

Definitely not that price. ;) If someone’s willing to pay for a deck with Three Woes and TSC in it but at a discount (it will be a certain percentage off the total price, like how the Contenders are priced), and comes with a deck box and sleeves then it’s a deck for that person.

Sounds great! I appreciate that. I think that would be great. I’ll message you so we can discuss details.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 05:47:26 PM by Watchman »
Purchase Prophecies of Christ today!

Offline Sean

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3626
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2019, 07:27:40 PM »
0
@Watchman
I applaud you for making available so many fully built decks.  My thing is that I don't have that amount to spend right now and wouldn't be interested in the cost of so few cards if I did.  I would be more inclined to spend around $20 for such a deck but even then I'd still hate doing it because it isn't a cost effective purchase from a volume standpoint.  (p.s. your antediluvian deck has 8 dominants)  I understand valuing cards at a high level when trading but actually purchasing is a whole other story for me.

As I said above, I really feel like the cost of entry is high right now.  High cost of entry is not conducive to gaining new players. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 07:32:55 PM by Sean »
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Offline Watchman

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1891
  • Your Turn Games Owner
    • -
    • Southeast Region
    • Your Turn Games
Re: What is the intended route for a new player?
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2019, 08:41:07 PM »
0
@Watchman
I applaud you for making available so many fully built decks.  My thing is that I don't have that amount to spend right now and wouldn't be interested in the cost of so few cards if I did.  I would be more inclined to spend around $20 for such a deck but even then I'd still hate doing it because it isn't a cost effective purchase from a volume standpoint.  (p.s. your antediluvian deck has 8 dominants)  I understand valuing cards at a high level when trading but actually purchasing is a whole other story for me.

As I said above, I really feel like the cost of entry is high right now.  High cost of entry is not conducive to gaining new players.

I double checked the two antediluvian themed decks and I'm only seeing 7 dominants.  Can you please advise if I'm missing something (you can just send me a PM).

Thanks for the encouraging word.  The reality is if you're willing to get into a CCG then that means you're willing to invest the time and money to do so.  A CCG is not your average game where you just pull it out of the closet, play it, then put it back.  It's an evolving, living, competitive game that includes card rarity and secondary market pricing.  This game involves buying pricey (at times) individual cards, or booster packs that give you cards at random that you can or will use or not use, depending on what kind of deck you want to build.

This is where the Contender decks come in.  They are meant to get a new player into the game faster by jumpstarting their game/tournament play with a minimal monetary investment that gives the customer a viable deck that they can build upon with cards they can purchase here or there.  The Contenders are an amazing value for what you get:  they all have rare cards in them and contain cards that spread across the expansions with the newest expansions being represented in the decks as well.  The customer also receives a deck box and sleeves.  Couple this with a greatly discounted price of well over 40% off normal retail cost if you were to purchase these cards and supplies separately, and the customer is receiving one heck of a deal/incentive to get into Redemption much easier than if he were to buy single cards at retail cost (which will cost a fortune) and/or booster packs, which simply won't guarantee you'll get what you need to build a competitive deck. 

I had one customer purchase 7 of these decks at ONE TIME.  That's a lot of money to invest, but at the same time he saved a ton of money doing so.  I even recently lowered the prices of the decks to make it more of an incentive to newer players to get into the game easier.  Some customers don't mind spending $35 to $55 on one of these decks, while others (such as yourself) don't care to spend more than $20, which is completely fine, but at that budget you can't expect to get many rare cards (which tend to be the stronger cards) to help build a competitive deck.  Now if you're wanting a volume purchase then no, this is not the best way to go.  But these are not meant to be for volume purchases; display box and collection purchases are meant for that.  It all comes down to what the individual customer wants.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 08:44:19 PM by Watchman »
Purchase Prophecies of Christ today!