Author Topic: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?  (Read 741 times)

Offline The Schaefer

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What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« on: February 25, 2019, 07:32:27 PM »
+7
I've sort of made it a personal undertaking to try and look at the complexities of Redemption and try to compare them with other tcgs/ccgs if possible and otherwise try to see where complexity may be able to be alleviated in the future.

Redemption has a high barrier for entry due to its rules so simplification is something I believe we should strive for in the future but not something that should be taken lightly either. My intention is to try and take an in depth look at various issues that players have (difficulties for newer players should be a primary focus imo) and to try to create a discourse and possible plan of action for these issues in the future in an educated fashion. I don't expect that change will occur or necessarily should in all matters but rather educated discourse may be able to change the game in a positive way in the future.

As a start I know ill be exploring modifiers and "the stack"/Special Initiative. Let me know what you think. It may end up just being a personal endeavor that doesnt amount to much but if you're up to it let me know.

Offline thejambi

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2019, 08:43:13 PM »
+2
This might not be so much complex as it is a slogging chore, but the cascade negates you could get into win just the I/J starter decks is a bit of a turn off, honestly.
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2019, 09:16:53 PM »
+1
This might not be so much complex as it is a slogging chore, but the cascade negates you could get into win just the I/J starter decks is a bit of a turn off, honestly.
^This. #cascade negate delenda est

Offline Isildur

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2019, 02:35:41 AM »
+1
This might not be so much complex as it is a slogging chore, but the cascade negates you could get into win just the I/J starter decks is a bit of a turn off, honestly.
Cascade negate is a big one for sure!

I also think that the REG is a blessing and a curse. Redemption does not have an up to date rule book. The REG is like reading a dictionary, and it's written in a language that isn't meant to instruct so much as it's meant to be the law.

Erratas are pretty messy too... a significant number of old cards from Warriors through Disciples don't even do what they say on the card half the time... the rules have changed so much over the years. It's hard to pick up the game when that's the case.

Not too much you can do about that last point though. That's sort of the nature of the beast at this point.
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Offline Sean

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2019, 08:07:39 AM »
0
Looking at the rules systems of other games is not necessarily a bad idea but I would also encourage just doing what is best for Redemption.  Simplification of rules is a very good thing but I don't think that means Redemption should copy other games.  Yes, there is plenty to learn from success of other games but don't want that to be a limiting factor either.
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Offline thecoolguy

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2019, 10:19:43 AM »
0
I always wanted to know what is/ is not searching like is exchange a search? because me and some friends are like confused about that.
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Online The Guardian

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2019, 11:09:17 AM »
+1
Whether something is a search ability depends on the location.

If you exchange with something in hand or territory, that is NOT a search.

If you exchange with something in deck, Reserve or discard pile, that is a search.
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2019, 01:40:18 PM »
0
1) Which abilities that are inherently CBI.
     I only just learned a few days ago that all side battle abilities are cbi.

2) Cascade negate, but I think I got the hang of that for the most part.

3) also insteads are confusing.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way instead works is that all insteads are actually modifiers, similar to cbn, so they can not be
    negated. But, the cost or benefit of the instead can be negated? just want to make sure I have that right.   
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Online The Guardian

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2019, 01:48:31 PM »
+2
Quote
1) Which abilities that are inherently CBI.
     I only just learned a few days ago that all side battle abilities are cbi.

This is kind of correct--side battles and the abilities that result are CBI once the side battle has completed because it's a separate phase. Cards that start side battles can still be interrupted/negated while the side battle is going on (either by a card played in the side battle or by something like Woes or Gam's Speech).
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Offline Reth

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2019, 04:13:41 PM »
+1
@The Schaefer:
I think if you take some closer look into the Ruling Questions you might get an idea about several topics which are creating lots of headaches and hence are good candidates for reducing complexity. IMHO there are a lot of repeating questions and topics which point to such kind of rules which are really hard to understand.

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2019, 04:20:40 PM »
+4
I think a larger issue than specific complex rules is that there is no real substantive, up-to-date rulebook. Most people who play a card game would never think of having to read through a document like the R.E.G. and the game really needs a more "casually readable" document that clears up some of the easy to address but unfortunately commonly misunderstood questions that get repeated asked by new players.

Online The Guardian

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2019, 04:27:13 PM »
0
I think a larger issue than specific complex rules is that there is no real substantive, up-to-date rulebook. Most people who play a card game would never think of having to read through a document like the R.E.G. and the game really needs a more "casually readable" document that clears up some of the easy to address but unfortunately commonly misunderstood questions that get repeated asked by new players.

There was some progress made on an updated rulebook, but the decision to release PoC in two phases slowed down that project so it is still in the works.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2019, 11:29:14 PM »
0
I think a larger issue than specific complex rules is that there is no real substantive, up-to-date rulebook. Most people who play a card game would never think of having to read through a document like the R.E.G. and the game really needs a more "casually readable" document that clears up some of the easy to address but unfortunately commonly misunderstood questions that get repeated asked by new players.

There was some progress made on an updated rulebook, but the decision to release PoC in two phases slowed down that project so it is still in the works.

If there's anything I can do personally to speed that up I'm happy to help.

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2019, 02:15:27 AM »
0
We are getting close to completing PoC Phase 2 testing, and I expect we will look to resume the rulebook project after that. I'm pretty sure the new rulebook will be an online document (not a print version) so community feedback and review will be much appreciated.
Fortress Alstad
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2019, 03:58:25 AM »
0
I just wanted to thank everyone for their replies and thoughts.
While I will primarily focus on the mechanics of Redemption gameplay all feedback is welcome and useful for discourse on possible change in the future to make Redemption a better game for all. Thank you all.

Offline Josh

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2019, 08:47:52 AM »
+7
I'll echo the "Cascade negate" posts above. 

But honestly, I think the biggest frustration is not necessarily any specific rule, but the thought process behind how rules are built.  It seems to me that often "How do we want the rules to interact with existing cards?" is the chosen route, instead of "How do we build logically sound rules that eliminate the common pain points and frustrations of players?".

For reference, our biggest competitor issued an errata or ban (can't remember which) just last year for a card that had been spoiled but whose expansion hadn't even been released yet. 

The reason?  It would have required both players to remember (on future turns) whether a certain event had occurred when the card was cast, and there was nothing inherent with the card that would assist the players in remembering it.

Think about that. 

Redemption was designed to be an evangelical tool, to tell the story about God's redemptive plan in Jesus Christ.  But it's MtG that's actually trying to lower barriers to entry so that anyone can play the game - and they are succeeding. 

That should be a wake-up call to us all. 

I'm starting to hear the phrase "Well, Redemption isn't for everyone" now when I push for less complexity and a change of mindset/approach when it comes to the rules, new starter decks, etc.  Of course Redemption isn't for everyone - but I believe it could be for a lot more if we approached how we make the rules for the game differently.

As it is, with Redemption's small niche following and complex rules, it's a game for elite players, designed by elite players. 
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Offline Master Q

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2019, 02:37:40 PM »
+2
I'm starting to hear the phrase "Well, Redemption isn't for everyone" now when I push for less complexity and a change of mindset/approach when it comes to the rules, new starter decks, etc.

You could even print an updated rulebook with said starters! Amazing!

Players should not have to resort to external resources to play Redemption at anything past the I/J level. The REG is great for things like; "What Heroes are prophets?" It should not be required for things like "How do Artifacts/Fortresses/Sites work?"

If the only starter deck (possibly the only cards, period) people ever buy is the I/J, and the included rulebook is lacking even in simple definitions, that's a problem. It's not a problem for vets, since we already know all this thanks to G/H and the community; it's not a problem to newcomers under the tutelage of a vet, since we already know all this and can instruct them proper; it is a problem for people who are neither. Which is, of course, the vast majority of consumers.
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Offline VJ

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2019, 04:28:00 PM »
0
As it is, with Redemption's small niche following and complex rules, it's a game for elite players, designed by elite players.

Some years back, my wife and I started playing Redemption with the E and F starters.  After playing for several weeks and getting very frustrated in trying to understand the rules we gave up.  We tried again with the G and H starters, but the same result.  She will not even try the I and J starters even though Rob told her the starters have been designed to be more "friendly" to new players.


Once while I was in Lancaster PA, I play several games with a player living there.  I had a deck I had purchased from TLG.  I enjoyed the fellowship we had together.  However, as a collector and novice player I realized that if I was to play Redemption I had a lot to learn.   

Since then, as every new set has come out I have noticed that more card types are added and the rules just keep getting more complex.  I used to read all of the forum's questions and answers concerning rule play, but now I do not bother because it is like reading a foreign language.


Just my thoughts of a collector.

VJ
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Offline TheHobbit

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2019, 08:00:23 PM »
0
I am not so sure the rules are complex as much as they are nuanced but abilities are complex. With territory class, a bunch of stuff triggering in upkeep, and cards generally doing more players have a lot more to keep track of. More to keep track of than is appropriate for the ability level of many kids. In watching most 10-13 year olds play you inevitably see watered down interactions (based on the cards they have in deck), perhaps their own coping mechanism.

 Implied searches is my biggest frustration. Currently a search ability is an ability that fulfills the definition of search which makes some sense but then you run into abilities like exchange that can be exchanges or searches? You then have take which is not obviously a search ability by reading the card. Not hard to keep straight with some practice but boggles the mind. I cannot relate to the frustrations of cascade negate, however, it follows from the definition of negate  ::)

As it is, with Redemption's small niche following and complex rules, it's a game for elite players, designed by elite players. 

I have to disagree in part. The fact that it is designed by elite players does not really have anything to do with the complexity of cards. Any designers of Redemption would likely be forced to cater to the caliber of the majority of players.

Redemption is like a small private school the cool kids sit at the cool table (elite players) and the other more inexperienced players cannot find many people to relate to (players to compete with) so they just sit by themselves or awhile then decide it's probably better to not eat lunch altogether. Not making any statements about the fellowship, though Redemption can be very cliquey too but that's neither here nor there. The size of Redemption is a perpetuating problem, a problem that I would argue is not the fault of any of the Elders.
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Offline VJ

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Re: What is complex about the Rules of Redemption for you?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2019, 09:26:18 AM »
0
I am not so sure the rules are complex as much as they are nuanced but abilities are complex. With territory class, a bunch of stuff triggering in upkeep, and cards generally doing more players have a lot more to keep track of. More to keep track of than is appropriate for the ability level of many kids. In watching most 10-13 year olds play you inevitably see watered down interactions (based on the cards they have in deck), perhaps their own coping mechanism.

I agree.  This was the area where my wife got frustrated.  After we had played several games with the G and H starters, I did download some winning deck lists and I built several decks from those list.  After playing a few games with them, my wife did complained that too much was going on and she was getting very confused.  To help with this issue I made some "house rules" to determine battle outcomes, but this was not enough to keep her interested in playing Redemption.

This was years ago and from my perspective the cards are just getting too complex, that is, there is more to remember in activiting the various abilities.  Not to mention the erratas and changes to the rules.

VJ
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