Author Topic: Understanding banding and battle resolution  (Read 4804 times)

troyfarrell

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Understanding banding and battle resolution
« on: April 01, 2009, 02:06:03 PM »
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Hi.

My wife and I picked up the 10th anniversary tin from Mardel and have been learning the game by playing the G and H decks against each other.  Everything we know about Redemption comes from the rulebook (woefully lacking in details on things like banding), the forums (hard to find specific information) and the REG (good, but requires some digging.)  (I picked Redemption up instead of M:tG and finding others who are interested has been a challenge.)

Here's the setup:
I have Egyptian Horsemen (7/7, Discard the top card from your opponent’s draw pile or draw a card from yours.)
I have captured her Miriam (4/4, Hero ignores gold brigade evil characters.)  I have other lost souls in my land of bondage.

She draws and makes a rescue attempt with Aaron (6/4, May band to Miriam. Protect all active Holy of Holies artifacts from discard while Aaron is in play.)  We decided (since it's not clear to we noobs) that she's allowed to band Miriam in to batte.

Questions:
1) Can my wife band Miriam in to battle from my land of bondage?
2) Assuming no enhancements are played, is Aaron slain or does Miriam's toughness somehow benefit Aaron?
3) If multiple characters of equal toughness are in battle, ignoring special abilities, who decides which character receives what damage?
(Underlying question: how is damage apportioned when multiple characters are in play?)
4) Totally unrelated to the previous questions: we received Poison in a booster pack.  Why is there a card called Poison with no special ability when there is an Instant Ability section called Poisons and Diseases?

Finally, if these questions belong in the Rulings section, feel free to move my post.

Thanks.
Troy

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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2009, 02:17:05 PM »
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Hey Troy, Welcome to the boards!

1.  I'm 99% sure that Miriam cannot be banded into battle...she is now considered a lost soul.  (the Teal Priest Ezra is the only one I know who changes this.

2.  Answer to #3 deals with this situation.

3.  There is no splitting damage.  All numbers are added together.  You live as a team or die as one (not counting SAs like you said).  The added Hero Strength must over come the opponent's added Evil Characters toughness and vice versa.  Again, Special Abilities affect this but you said to disregard those at the moment.

4. Poison came from the first set and that is only it's name (and pretty worthless for Evil too).  The section in Poisons and Diseases deals with Special Abilities and not names of cards.  AKA the game has gotten a lot better since the first set.  ;)

I hope this helps and keep asking questions if you are confused!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 02:22:40 PM by soul seeker »
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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2009, 02:24:34 PM »
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I didn't explain why Aaron can't band to Miriam...sorry for that.  Miriam is not considered "in play" which is both battle and territory.  Instead, she is in the Land of Bondage.  So the banding Special Ability targets all Miriams in play, so the Miriam in the Land of Bondage is not a valid target.
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troyfarrell

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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2009, 02:27:39 PM »
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Thanks for the quick reply.

Since the REG says that banding abilities apply to cards "in a territory" which, according to the glossary, includes Lost Souls, we figured that the banding should be allowed.  I'd be happy to get more clarification on this.

Concerning no splitting of damage, what happens if one of the heroes has an "immune" or "ignore" special ability like Miriam?  Would this combination be unstoppable by cards subject to the immunity/"ignore" special ability?  I read in the REG that "ignore" and "immune" aren't automatically shared in banding situations.

Thanks.
Troy

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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2009, 02:27:43 PM »
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Mr. Seeker, that is not correct. The Land of Bondage is in play. Banding to a captured character doesn't work because you must band to characters of your alignment (exceptions: Siege and The Second Seal explicitly say to add characters of the opposite alignment), plus captured characters are not characters (and therefore cannot enter battle until released).

If a Hero ignores all Evil Characters in battle, then the battle is won, even if the other characters in battle die. For example, Cherubim (5/5 silver Hero) banded to Lois (2/2 purple Hero) vs. Goliath (10/10 black EC), Cherubim plays Spiritual Warfare (Hero ignores all human Evil Characters) which only enhances Cherubim. Lois is killed by Goliath, but Cherubim rescues the soul.
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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2009, 02:39:58 PM »
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@ Tim  That is the 1% I wasn't sure about...I wasn't sure if LoB was in play or not..oops.  At least, my overall ruling was right.   :P

@ Troy, to add what Tim is saying.  Ignore and immunity doesn't extend to both but the numbers does.  In Tim's example, the ignore helps Cherubim, but the Heroes numbers does not exceed Goliath's strength of 10.  So the soul is rescued because of the ignored but Lois still dies because of Goliath's strength and Goliath lives because his toughness wasn't overcome.
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troyfarrell

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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2009, 02:43:03 PM »
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On distributing damage:
So the ignore special ability causes the rescue to succeed.  If and only if the heroes' combined toughness is overcome, the heroes which are not protected are discarded.  I think I get it.  This could be better spelled out in the rules.

On banding in captured heros:
I'm not sure what you mean by alignment except that you might mean side/player/team.  I don't find any such stipulation in the REG.  What I did find was this, in the third paragraph:

Quote from: the REG
Players may band to any opponent’s character(s) unless the opponent’s cards are protected from being brought into battle (e.g., Wall of Protection).  The player bringing in the additional characters is referred to as the holder and retains control until the end of battle.  However, the owner does not relinquish ownership unless stated otherwise.  Characters are returned to their respective territories at the end of battle.  If characters are discarded during battle, they are placed on their owner’s discard piles.

So it seems that it does not matter whether the captured hero is considered "aligned" with me or with my opponent.  Thoughts?

Thanks.
Troy

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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2009, 02:44:50 PM »
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Sorry for not being clear about "alignment." Alignment is good (Heroes, good enhancements, covenants, good fortresses, good dominants), evil (Evil Characters, evil enhancements, curses, evil fortresses, evil dominants), or neutral (Lost Souls, sites, artifacts). Captured characters are neutral, since they're treated as Lost Souls. Alignment is defined in the REG glossary.

The Hero Aaron cannot band to a captured Miriam because banding adds a character to battle. Captured characters are no longer characters.

The Hero Aaron cannot band to a (converted) evil Miriam because "Heroes may not use evil enhancements or band to Evil Characters".
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 02:48:48 PM by TimMierz »
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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2009, 02:45:34 PM »
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I think by alignment...Tim might have meant that Miriam is no longer a "hero" it is now classified (aligned) as  "lost soul".  Again, I'm 99% sure that is what Tim meant.

*EDIT:  instaposted...Tim will just tell you what he means. :P "
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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2009, 02:58:35 PM »
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Actually tim... I think forts are neutral. But I could be wrong. At least for deck building requirements.  :)
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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2009, 03:03:38 PM »
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Actually tim... I think forts are neutral. But I could be wrong. At least for deck building requirements.  :)

REG:
"When a special ability or deck building rule refers to a good card it means Hero (cross icon), good enhancement (Bible icon), good dominant (lamb icon), covenant (Bible and grail icon),or good fortress (fortress with bright rainbow colors)."
"When a special ability or deck building rule refers to an evil card it means Evil Character (dragon icon), evil enhancement (skull icon), evil dominant (reaper icon), or evil fortress (fortress with dark rainbow colors)."

Samson's Sacrifice: "If used by a judge, negate and discard one O.T. evil Fortress or occupied Site in play to discard all cards in battle and all human Evil Characters in opponent’s territory."
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troyfarrell

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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2009, 09:12:14 PM »
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...
Banding to a captured character doesn't work because you must band to characters of your alignment (exceptions: Siege and The Second Seal explicitly say to add characters of the opposite alignment), plus captured characters are not characters (and therefore cannot enter battle until released).
...
and
...
The Hero Aaron cannot band to a captured Miriam because banding adds a character to battle. Captured characters are no longer characters.
...

I have no problem with the result of your logic.  In fact, I agree that banding in captive heroes doesn't make sense, but I think the REG should be clearer on this point.

I don't see any where the REG requires that banding cards be aligned.  It makes sense, but the REG doesn't require it*.

I also don't see how captured characters are not characters.  They must be characters or they would be lost souls.  Discarded characters are also characters for that matter.  Adding an adjective does not abrogate the noun.

(No, I'm not a lawyer.  I'm just pedantic to a fault.)

Thanks.
Troy

* I haven't read all of the REG, so I could be wrong.

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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2009, 10:12:18 PM »
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I don't see any where the REG requires that banding cards be aligned.  It makes sense, but the REG doesn't require it*.
I posted a quote saying so in my above post. That particular quote was taken from, of all places, the Convert section.

Quote
I also don't see how captured characters are not characters.  They must be characters or they would be lost souls.  Discarded characters are also characters for that matter.  Adding an adjective does not abrogate the noun.
They are treated as Lost Souls, if they're in the Land of Bondage. If there in something like Raider's Camp, then they're just captured characters, which are neutral cards. You cannot play Christian Martyr on a captured Hero, but you can play Burial on one in your Land of Bondage. See http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/howtouse31.htm for some further details and examples.

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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2009, 11:44:16 PM »
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(I picked Redemption up instead of M:tG and finding others who are interested has been a challenge.)
Welcome to you and your wife.  SoulSeeker and Tim are doing a great job answering your specific questions, and they are great sources.  Tim is the reigning National Champion in Redemption's premier event, and SoulSeeker is a long-time player of high caliber.  Since they have your specific questions covered, I'll touch on your other point about difficulty finding games.

Teaching your friends the game is a great idea, and you could even host some tournaments after learning the game a bit better.  But while you are waiting for a playgroup to get started, feel free to join us in some online Redemption.  It is completely free, you can make a deck with any card in the game (whether you own it or not), and there are always people who are looking for someone to play (of a variety of skill levels).  The details are found here.

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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2009, 08:29:41 AM »
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I'd like to take a moment to encourage you along the lines of having others to play Redemption with.  When I started playing a little over three years ago I only had my wife and my sister to play with.  We learned the game together so that was fun, but for a long time I didn't have anyone else to play except when we traveled to tournaments.  Eventually we started a "play group" by inviting several of our friends and people from church that we knew enjoyed gaming.  We got some copies of the G/H starter deck and gave half to each person that decided to join us.  We met weekly (on Friday nights) for fun, food and games for over a year.  It's been great to have friends locally to play with.  In the past year and half most of them have gotten pretty good.  One of them even beats me pretty regularly now.

You'll also find that there's a great community of people to play with online.  Check out the "RTS Online Play" section of these boards to find out about using RTS (Redemption Table Simulator) to play with other people online.  Besides opening up vast new opportunities for people to play, it's a great tool because it will let you try out cards you don't physically own so you can see if they are ones you'd want to get.
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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2009, 10:21:05 AM »
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I agree that "captured" does not take away "character", but it does add its own special set of rules as to how to treat the card.  For example: "no cards that target characters may target one that has been captured".  Or, "a captured character that is in the Land of Bondage is treated as a Lost Soul, and can be targeted by cards that target Lost Souls".

troyfarrell

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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2009, 10:42:03 AM »
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...
They are treated as Lost Souls, if they're in the Land of Bondage. If there in something like Raider's Camp, then they're just captured characters, which are neutral cards. You cannot play Christian Martyr on a captured Hero, but you can play Burial on one in your Land of Bondage. See http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/howtouse31.htm for some further details and examples.
...
The REG says all over the place that they are treated like Lost Souls.  I get that.  I was being thrown by the fact that the REG doesn't seem to have a listing of what Lost Souls can and cannot do (e.g., banding.)  (Ignore for a moment that it doesn't make sense for a Lost Soul to enter battle.)

This is what I missed:
Quote from: the REG
Only a card that affects Lost Soul cards is able to affect that character held prisoner, unless a card specifies “captured Hero” or “captured Evil Character.”
So, Aaron cannot bring Miriam into battle because his banding ability does not specify (not that it ever would reasonably) that it can target a captured Miriam.  (Yes, among the numerous other reasons mentioned, e.g., alignment.)

Thanks for being patient with me.  I feel honored to have received such persistent attention from such widely know players.

Thanks for the welcome.  I have installed RTS (on Linux no less) which makes me wonder if there are plans for an on-line version of Redemption.  (I have a feeling that is a longer, larger discussion than suites this thread.)  On the other hand, one reason we picked up a card game is so we can do the face-to-face thing instead of playing on the computer all the time.

We may try to form a play group, though we wouldn't mind meeting other players in Austin, Texas (not Minnesota.)  What is the most economical way to acquire several starting decks?

I'll try to start new threads for the rest of my questions.

Thanks.
Troy

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Re: Understanding banding and battle resolution
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2009, 11:50:36 AM »
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What is the most economical way to acquire several starting decks?
If I was starting right now, I would probably buy some of the deals listed here.

There are also often good deals on ebay by a guy who goes by FaithRaider (real name John Michaliszyn).
If there is a specific card that you are looking for you can buy just about anything at 3 Lions (here).

If you do end up starting a playgroup, then you can get a lot of common cards for free from "The Storehouse".

 


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