Author Topic: Functional Differences Between LRs and Their Prior Versions  (Read 194 times)

Offline Kevinthedude

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Responding to Gabe in a new thread as requested.

LRs shouldn't be functionally different in any way from their plain versions.

That was our idealistic goal when LRs started out but that ship sailed with Spy and Sabbath Breaker, which we didn't realize until it was too late. We did the same again with Assyrian Archer this year, intentionally this time. We also decided to give the Daniel LR a subtitle and cloud icon (like the other 3 major prophets in PoC). Our original goals were set in part because LRs were originally envisioned to be as rare or rarer than URs, but that's not how they ended up. We've decided that since they're easily available and have been moved the common slot this year, that we're OK with minor differences.

But this discussion has diverged quite a bit from the original topic and is probably best dedicated to its own thread.

The art thing is not ideal but also very different from something like an identifier or ability difference. I think giving Cloud to Daniel is a fine idea but I the old version of Daniel should be errata'd to be Cloud as well to match his LR version. Updating LRs is fine as long as it comes with errata to the old version.

Online sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Functional Differences Between LRs and Their Prior Versions
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2019, 06:19:09 AM »
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Why does it have to be exactly the same? We can define what a LR is anyway we want.  I'm all for minor changes if It makes the card/game better

Offline Watchman

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Re: Functional Differences Between LRs and Their Prior Versions
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2019, 07:27:34 AM »
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Why does it have to be exactly the same? We can define what a LR is anyway we want.  I'm all for minor changes if It makes the card/game better

I agree. Daniel, for example, if you want to use the old Daniel (Nats promo) with cloud-related abilities (LR version) I think that’s really cool, while if you don’t want to have the cloud icon then you could use the promo version. It adds variety and options to the game.

I don’t think LRs should deviate too much from the original (and the vast majority of them do not), but minor updates like dual icon and Cloud icon is fine without an errata needed (an errata would add more complexity to an already heavily-errata’d game given that the old cards haven’t been rotated out). Like Gabe said, the newer LRs and any future ones will be more available too, now that they’re taking a common spot.
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Offline TheHobbit

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Re: Functional Differences Between LRs and Their Prior Versions
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2019, 08:59:34 AM »
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Why does it have to be exactly the same? We can define what a LR is anyway we want.  I'm all for minor changes if It makes the card/game better

Because when you define legacy rare one way you should not change based on a mistake. Then, it is reasonable to either fix the mistake OR not repeat it. I agree with your last sentence though. I said "should" loosely earlier; Redemption does not necessarily have to be "reasonable" with design intent and in fact I would like to see some drastic changes with these cards to make them worth opening from a pack.
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Functional Differences Between LRs and Their Prior Versions
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2019, 09:30:39 AM »
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It looks like I missed something, but did the Daniel LR receive a cloud icon?

I agree with kevinthedude, primarily due to my interpretation of what Legacy Rares are supposed to represent - older cards reprinted on the new card face with revised wording to reflect current practices.

I actually wanted to request that Daniel receive a cloud icon, but did not for this reason. Cloud icons were never a thing before the CoW set, so unless all copies of characters mentioned in the hall of faith received an errata to include them as a “cloud” card then this would seem inconsistent. I would not be opposed to this.

I think the implications of changing something about one card and not applying them across the board could be great. If we can just decide to add a cloud icon to Daniel, then we could change ANYTHING about any other LRs and therefore it would be a new card, not a LR.


Offline kram1138

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Re: Functional Differences Between LRs and Their Prior Versions
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2019, 10:14:56 AM »
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I think the implications of changing something about one card and not applying them across the board could be great. If we can just decide to add a cloud icon to Daniel, then we could change ANYTHING about any other LRs and therefore it would be a new card, not a LR.
I don't see the issue with this. Just changing what it means to be a legacy rare is fine. The changes that some LR cards have are very minor. They aren't really "new" in the way the new Isaiah or Jonah is new, they are just slight tweaks to the older cards. We can make any decision we want. I don't see any reason to constrain ourselves to this arbitrary rule that we created. We can just change them. We can just say "Wouldn't it be cool if we had a version of the Daniel promo that had a cloud icon?" and then make one.

And as others have said, this game doesn't need more erratas. We shouldn't be handing out erratas left and right because a card doesn't match a newer version of the card. Them being different is fine. It's much simpler to just have them be different, even if that wasn't the original intention of LR cards.
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Functional Differences Between LRs and Their Prior Versions
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2019, 10:27:15 AM »
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I think the implications of changing something about one card and not applying them across the board could be great. If we can just decide to add a cloud icon to Daniel, then we could change ANYTHING about any other LRs and therefore it would be a new card, not a LR.
I don't see the issue with this. Just changing what it means to be a legacy rare is fine. The changes that some LR cards have are very minor. They aren't really "new" in the way the new Isaiah or Jonah is new, they are just slight tweaks to the older cards. We can make any decision we want. I don't see any reason to constrain ourselves to this arbitrary rule that we created. We can just change them. We can just say "Wouldn't it be cool if we had a version of the Daniel promo that had a cloud icon?" and then make one.

And as others have said, this game doesn't need more erratas. We shouldn't be handing out erratas left and right because a card doesn't match a newer version of the card. Them being different is fine. It's much simpler to just have them be different, even if that wasn't the original intention of LR cards.

Actually, after seeing the chain in the other post and Gabe’s explanation (which is also at the beginning of this thread, but I missed it the first time), I agree with you.

It sounds like there was a cognizant decision to change the flexibility of LRs, rather than just an exception for Daniel.

To be fair, I still don’t think having different art on genetic cards is quite as impactful as adding a cloud icon, but this could also open the doors for some other relatively minor changes to LRs which hopefully will benefit the game over all.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Functional Differences Between LRs and Their Prior Versions
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 10:40:17 AM »
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The only thing that can be a potential issue is that technically Naaman and Daniel are new, different versions/cards since Naaman is now dual icon and Daniel having the cloud icon and new name. But again, I’m for variety instead of a strict update of an old card.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Functional Differences Between LRs and Their Prior Versions
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2019, 01:30:52 PM »
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I'm all for changes to LR versions of older cards (Daniel LR being a cloud hero is pretty significant), as long as a rotation of older cards is on the way. ;)

That said, even if rotation isn't in the near future, it's still a win-win. There are pros and cons to using the old Daniel promo over the cloud one, and encouraging players to buy newer cards is always good. I would not want to errata the old one to be cloud. Then there's little point to having new versions if the older ones are just going to be 'errata'd up', so to speak.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Functional Differences Between LRs and Their Prior Versions
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2019, 01:37:57 PM »
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I'm all for changes to LR versions of older cards (Daniel LR being a cloud hero is pretty significant), as long as a rotation of older cards is on the way. ;)

That said, even if rotation isn't in the near future, it's still a win-win. There are pros and cons to using the old Daniel promo over the cloud one, and encouraging players to buy newer cards is always good. I would not want to errata the old one to be cloud. Then there's little point to having new versions if the older ones are just going to be 'errata'd up', so to speak.

+1

Though I was somewhat apprehensive when the Elder team began discussing the idea of minor updates to LR (i.e. the art on Archer and the Cloud on Daniel), I believe now it is the best way forward.

If set rotation happens, we have two "up to date" versions of Daniel available.
If set rotation doesn't happen, there are still minor pros/cons to using the promo vs the LR (being a Cloud Hero has advantages, but also has disadvantages such as Jericho).
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