Poll

Cascade Negate statements

I understand it fully and want to keep it intact.
I partially understand it and want to keep it intact.
I don't care.
I partially understand it and want it to go away.
I understand it fully and want it to go away.
I want to keep it but only until it hits a CBN or CBI ability--nothing after those should be cascaded.

Author Topic: Cascade Negate  (Read 3366 times)

Offline Jonesy

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Cascade Negate
« on: July 25, 2018, 08:17:02 PM »
+6
I was expressing my frustration with cascade negate.  I was wondering the odds of it changing it. Someone encouraged me to create a thread to + 1 if you want to get rid of cascade negate. So here it is folks, + 1 it up. :)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 08:55:49 PM by Jonesy »

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2018, 08:18:06 PM »
+3
+1

I think this should actually be explained as stopping all "indirect negation" but I agree.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 08:20:45 PM by jbeers285 »
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2018, 08:18:22 PM »
0
 +1
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 09:01:58 PM by Kevinthedude »

Offline Jonesy

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2018, 08:20:12 PM »
0
You have a week to adjust decks. ;)

Offline Watchman

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2018, 08:49:27 PM »
+3
I don’t agree with this rule change being implemented prior to Nats but am wholly in favor of a change to the cascade negate rule. I’m particularly in favor of anything that’s played after a card that’s CBI or CBN (like the Nebie example from the original thread) should not be cascade negated.
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Offline Jonesy

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2018, 08:56:55 PM »
+2
Edited! I understand why people would want to wait until after Nats. So + 1 if you want it changed after at some point.

Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2018, 09:02:07 PM »
+1
+1

I would love to see it go but I don't think it's going to be that easy.

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2018, 09:03:04 PM »
0
I would love to see it go but I don't think it's going to be that easy.

It really is. The game doesn't break at all my removing cascade. A few cards get slightly stronger and a few get slightly weaker, that's it.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2018, 09:36:14 PM »
+1
I would love to see it go but I don't think it's going to be that easy.

It really is. The game doesn't break at all my removing cascade. A few cards get slightly stronger and a few get slightly weaker, that's it.

More than a few...all banding cards inherently get stronger and all drawing cards get inherently stronger.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have traditionally been on the side of maintaining the status quo. The issue of cascade negate was discussed at length during the process of creating REG 5.0. It was agreed upon at that time to maintain the status quo with the understanding that we would likely revisit at some point.

One of the things to keep in mind is that the majority of cascade negate situations, (which are really not all that common to begin with), are pretty easy to understand.

Hero A bands to Hero B. Hero B's ability activates. The band is then negated and Hero B's ability is thus negated.

As more and more CBN/CBI cards have been introduced into the card pool, the cascade negate process becomes much more convoluted (as evidenced by recent threads) because those cards end up in the middle, but I still believe that those scenarios are still fairly uncommon.

That being said, one of our objectives as a playtest team in recent years has been to give CBI to abilities that are "messy" to undo (i.e. cards like Ends of the Earth, search abilities, and even limited draw abilities like Servant Angel) and staying away from giving CBN/CBI to battle winners. Ergo, the likelihood of the messier cascade negate scenarios happening would continue to rise if no change was made. As a result, I would now say I am more open to the idea of eliminating cascades (or taking a smaller first step and starting with the idea that cascades can't "hop" CBN/CBI as Watchman mentioned).

Either of those changes could make the game better, but I am not convinced that is a certainty. Eliminating cascade opens the door to other odd scenarios and interactions, some of which we probably won't even realize until we start playing that way. As I mentioned at the beginning, banding and drawing--two of the strongest abilities in the game both offensively and defensively--both get inherently stronger in a world without cascades. In the interest of games not timing out due to "resetting" things, maybe it's okay for band and draw to get stronger, but it will change the game--of that I am certain.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 09:39:14 PM by The Guardian »
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2018, 09:57:25 PM »
0
I would love to see it go but I don't think it's going to be that easy.

It really is. The game doesn't break at all my removing cascade. A few cards get slightly stronger and a few get slightly weaker, that's it.

More than a few...all banding cards inherently get stronger and all drawing cards get inherently stronger.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have traditionally been on the side of maintaining the status quo. The issue of cascade negate was discussed at length during the process of creating REG 5.0. It was agreed upon at that time to maintain the status quo with the understanding that we would likely revisit at some point.

One of the things to keep in mind is that the majority of cascade negate situations, (which are really not all that common to begin with), are pretty easy to understand.

Hero A bands to Hero B. Hero B's ability activates. The band is then negated and Hero B's ability is thus negated.

As more and more CBN/CBI cards have been introduced into the card pool, the cascade negate process becomes much more convoluted (as evidenced by recent threads) because those cards end up in the middle, but I still believe that those scenarios are still fairly uncommon.

That being said, one of our objectives as a playtest team in recent years has been to give CBI to abilities that are "messy" to undo (i.e. cards like Ends of the Earth, search abilities, and even limited draw abilities like Servant Angel) and staying away from giving CBN/CBI to battle winners. Ergo, the likelihood of the messier cascade negate scenarios happening would continue to rise if no change was made. As a result, I would now say I am more open to the idea of eliminating cascades (or taking a smaller first step and starting with the idea that cascades can't "hop" CBN/CBI as Watchman mentioned).

Either of those changes could make the game better, but I am not convinced that is a certainty. Eliminating cascade opens the door to other odd scenarios and interactions, some of which we probably won't even realize until we start playing that way. As I mentioned at the beginning, banding and drawing--two of the strongest abilities in the game both offensively and defensively--both get inherently stronger in a world without cascades. In the interest of games not timing out due to "resetting" things, maybe it's okay for band and draw to get stronger, but it will change the game--of that I am certain.

For the first 8 years that I played Redemption I didn't know cascade negate existed. I will concede that the game was, as a whole, lower power level then so it may not have been as noticeable but the change in the strength of the affected cards isn't actually that large. On paper it seems that way but I can tell you from experience playing without cascade that its not nearly as drastic of a power change as it might seem.

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2018, 10:06:39 PM »
+1
The 2015 Season at nats is when I first learned of cascade negate. 3 years later I still don't fully understand it.  Prior to that nats the whole NE region played the whole season without cascade negate and it didn't break anything during that season. (I don't think we intended to break the rules or make incorrect rulings. I believe we just misunderstood what was supposed to be happening with Cascade.)
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2018, 10:24:13 PM »
0
Poll Added
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2018, 10:47:46 PM »
+1
I would like for the poll to include an option for supporting cascade negate that does not hop CBN/CBI

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2018, 11:22:44 PM »
0
I would like for the poll to include an option for supporting cascade negate that does not hop CBN/CBI

Added.
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2018, 08:31:08 AM »
+2
I would like for the poll to include an option for supporting cascade negate that does not hop CBN/CBI

Thanks for including this option to vote Justin.


I know we aren't changing anything here and this is just an opinion poll but I struggle with this option. It's a halfway option that only gets messy on both sides. If we make a change here I'd like to see it go all or nothing because when we start trying to dance down the center aisle nothing gets accomplished or we do more damage then we undo.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2018, 01:07:28 PM »
0
As I mentioned at the beginning, banding and drawing--two of the strongest abilities in the game both offensively and defensively--both get inherently stronger in a world without cascades.

First of all, negatable banding (Abishai, Asahel, Ishmaiah, Heldai, new Phineas, etc) is bad.  The game is flooded with Negate abilities right now, including reusable EC negate abilities.  It was flooded with them before 3 Woes existed, and 3W just added to the Negation Pain Train (trademark pending). 

Now, CBI and CBN banding is powerful.  But if negatable banding was powerful, Red would be a top offense.

Second, negatable drawing is a huge problem from a gameplay standpoint.  I know Drawing is powerful, and making Draw abilites CBI makes them even more powerful, but it's so easy to make mistakes when Draw abilities get negated (plus, the opponent can't prove that the player isn't cheating). 

I'm at the point where I don't even care about how powerful Draw abilities will be if they all become CBI; I'm ready to push that button.  I'd much rather let the player keep the cards they drew off of Messenger of Satan or Abigail and get on with the battle than have them fumbling around, wracking their brain, trying (and probably failing) to put back the right cards in the right order.



Maybe we need a game rule that applies only to hidden information (Look, Search/Take, Draw, etc).  Whenever a non-CBI/CBN "hidden information" ability is used by a player, any opponent may play a negate (or activate a triggered ability like Gam's Speech) to negate that ability before it happens.  If they pass on the opportunity, then the "hidden information" ability becomes CBI.  Maybe we start testing this in the battle phase only.*

* Credit goes to SEB for coming up with this idea
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2018, 01:27:18 PM »
0
Negates (specifically evil negates) are back in vogue because we've made less CBN/CBI good battle winners in recent sets, and because we don't want to make negates all the same, many of them can target a variety of cards (i.e. Heroes or enhancements). Look back at the top Nationals decks from several years ago and there aren't many evil negates being used.

I think there's more reasons besides banding being cascade-able that Red has not been a top offense. And don't forget, a Red-based banding deck won Nationals in 2012...leading to the creation of Scattered.  8)
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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2018, 03:27:53 PM »
+1
Evil banding defenses get much better and so does Throne, that's a pretty big change. Not to mention this would be a fundamental rule change for something that 9/10 times is easily resolved.

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2018, 03:31:36 PM »
0
It barely impacts throne. It really only effects Abigail.

Evil banding and letting the opponent play some cards to beat it?? What that seems terrible for the game.  ;) :) ;)

(I agree with you pretty often Nathan just not on this one, lol)
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2018, 03:44:08 PM »
+1
Lost Souls with draw-dependent triggers also get better without cascade.

I attack with a Hero who has a regular draw ability and draw the Lawless LS, which I trigger on myself to get an extra evil card.

You block and at some point negate my draw.

Lawless goes back on top of the deck with the other cards I drew, but since it's not cascaded, I get to keep the evil card and then I'll draw Lawless again the next time I draw. I might even Woes my own draw ability so I can play another draw card and use Lawless twice in one battle... ::)
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Offline SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2018, 03:44:35 PM »
0
Where is the vote for I don't really understand it at all?
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2018, 04:30:05 PM »
0
Lost Souls with draw-dependent triggers also get better without cascade.

I attack with a Hero who has a regular draw ability and draw the Lawless LS, which I trigger on myself to get an extra evil card.

You block and at some point negate my draw.

Lawless goes back on top of the deck with the other cards I drew, but since it's not cascaded, I get to keep the evil card and then I'll draw Lawless again the next time I draw. I might even Woes my own draw ability so I can play another draw card and use Lawless twice in one battle... ::)

Good, N.T. souls needs the boost ;)

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2018, 05:14:08 PM »
0
Same scenario except instead of Lawless, I draw Covet LS, which I give to you and take one of your LS.

Then the draw is negated and Covet goes back on my deck...but I still have the LS I grabbed from you... :dunno:

 ::)
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2018, 05:17:27 PM »
0
Same scenario except instead of Lawless, I draw Covet LS, which I give to you and take one of your LS.

Then the draw is negated and Covet goes back on my deck...but I still have the LS I grabbed from you... :dunno:

 ::)

I actually discovered stealing too many souls from the opponent isn't as good as it sounds after running hunter and covet in the same deck :P

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2018, 05:22:13 PM »
0
So when you were playing without cascade negate rules and a situation like this came up:

Draw ability happens, Revealer LS is drawn and activates.

Draw is then negated putting Revealer LS back on top of deck.

Did you leave the revealed cards on the bottom of the deck? (Essentially allowing Revealer to reveal 4 cards total--2 with the negated draw and 2 with the actual draw)


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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2018, 05:24:18 PM »
0
So when you were playing without cascade negate rules and a situation like this came up:

Draw ability happens, Revealer LS is drawn and activates.

Draw is then negated putting Revealer LS back on top of deck.

Did you leave the revealed cards on the bottom of the deck? (Essentially allowing Revealer to reveal 4 cards total--2 with the negated draw and 2 with the actual draw)

Yep

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2018, 05:27:34 PM »
0
Interesting. I suppose it's just the years of playing with cascade (and mostly understanding the principle behind it), but that actually seems counter-intuitive to me...
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2018, 05:43:33 PM »
+2
Interesting. I suppose it's just the years of playing with cascade (and mostly understanding the principle behind it), but that actually seems counter-intuitive to me...

I understand how the way each player learned it likely is the most intuitive way to them, but whenever I've taken a step back and tried to think about it as a new player, or think about how I would teach either version of negate to a new player, the reason I always end up sticking with cascade being less intuitive is that without cascade, you can always trust that the only thing you have to undo is the text on the card you negated. It lets me use illustrations like thinking of what the opposite of what the negated card's ability would be and then just doing that. When I tell new players encounter a negated draw their first headache is often remembering which of the cards in their hand they just drew and which they had before, then after that figure that out it's often a little overwhelming for them to piece together the abilities of the souls they drew and all the characters they banded in off the banding enhancement they had drawn and then now instead of just being able to tell them, "think about the opposite of what this card does, since you drew three and is was negated now you put the three back" they have to go get the 5 lawless cards off the bottom of their deck, remember which evil card in hand they got from it, put them all back on top, etc.

It's easy for those of us to have been playing a long time to forget that visualizing the process for negating certain cards, even without cascade in the picture, is quite a bit of effort when you haven't done and undone that ability hundreds of times. Sure they can slowly piece it together but now they've spent a bunch of brain power undoing five things that they could have spent planning out their strategy for the next few turns. Cascade drastically increases the amount of mental overheard a lot of scenarios require, especially for new players.

Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Cascade Negate
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2018, 06:38:56 PM »
0
Don't forget about the original cascade negates.  ;) Even if we get rid of it we will still have it in some form, Unless set rotation happens.

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