Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Topic started by: jesse on May 08, 2018, 04:10:02 PM
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Branching off from this (http://www.cactusforums.com/deck-building-and-design/set-rotation-food-for-thought/) thread about set rotation, and in conjunction with this (http://www.cactusforums.com/new-card-ideas/step-right-up!-fix-a-card!-any-card!/) thread containing an ongoing list of cards that we think need to be changed (more than wording updated) in a post-rotation Redemption world, let's make a community list of the cards pre-I/J that we think are good as-is (aside from needing updated wording) and should be kept in the game if/when set rotation happens starting with I/J. I'll reserve a few spaces below for sufficient room, but feel free to start making suggestions, everyone! 8)
Pre-I/J Sets List:
Original/Un-Lim & A/B
Prophets
Women
Warriors
C/D Starter
Apostles
Patriarchs
Kings
E/F Starters
Angel Wars
G/H Starters
Priests
Faith of Our Fathers
Rock of Ages
Thesaurus Ex Preteritus
Disciples
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Recommended cards to keep (just update wording) post-rotation:
Original/Un-Lim & A/B
Authority of Christ
Bread of Life
Stillness
Prophets
Cup of Wrath
Dungeon of Malchiah
False Peace
False Prophesy
Four Horns
Furnace of God’s Wrath
Great Image
Highway
Hunger
Ignorance
Lies
Lion Dwelling with the Calf
Torn Mantle
Valley of Dry Bones
Women
Children
Idle Gossip
Jael
Laughter
Lot’s Wife (already a Legacy Rare)
Potiphar’s Wife
Praises
Rizpah's Sackcloth
Scarlet Line
Scorn of Michal
Temptation
Treachery of Jezebel
Women as Snares
Warriors
Crown of Thorns
Elijah's Mantle
Leprosy
Mask of Arrogance
Mask of Fear
Mask of Worldliness
C/D Starter Decks
Obedience of Noah (already a Legacy Rare)
Holy of Holies
Apostles
30 Pieces of Silver
A Roman Soldier's Faith
Ananias
Angelic Rebellion
Benefiting from Troubles
Burial Shroud
Christian Suing Another
Desertion
Elders of Jerusalem (all 3)
Face of Death
God's Provision
Good Samaritan
Great Mourning
Hostility
Household Idols
Lacking Sleep
Leper Colony
Lost Coin Found
Lost Soul - N.T. Only (Acts 11:18)
Sadducees (all art versions)
Sanctifying Faith
Ship to Cyprus
Sowing the Seed
Strength in Weakness
Take as a Slave
The Meal in Emmaus
Three Nails
Transfiguration
Unholy Writ
Wall of Protection
Zaccheus
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Patriarchs
Abraham's Servant to Ur
All Hope Lost
Ambush
Angelic Advice
Arrogance
Balaam's Disobedience (already a Legacy Rare)
Battle Cry
Begging for Grain
Blessings
Blue Tassels
Coercion
Covenant of Abraham
Covenant of Noah
Covenant of Palestine
Covenant of Salt
Covenant with Moses
Danites Attack
Death of Firstborn
Death of Unrighteous (already a Legacy Rare)
Deepening Lie
Disobedience
Dream
Flight of Spies
Isaac Deceived
Jacob's Dream
Jacob's Ladder
Joseph in Prison
Joseph's Brother's Scheme
Joseph's Silver Cup
Judah's Sin
Korah
Korah's Rebellion
Leper
Midianite Attack
Moses and Elders
Moses kills Egyptian
Passover
Pit
Prosperity
Providing Angel
Sarah's Jealousy
Stolen Idols
Stolen Blessing (SA one)
Storehouse
The gods of Egypt
Three Angels
Water Shaft
Kings
Adino
Ambush the City
Angel’s Sword
Archers of Kedar
Asherah Pole
Battle Prayer
Bearing Bad News
Besieging the City
Captain of the Host
Chariots of the Sun
Chemosh
Coat of Mail
Dart
David’s Harp
Devourer
Displeased Philistines
Disuading Speech
Egyptian Archer
Fallen Warrior
Hadad Arises
Israel Pays Tribute
Josiah’s Covenant
Kerith Ravine
King Ahaziah
King Ben-hadad I
King Jeroboam I
King Jehoram
King Jotham
King Nadab
King Omri
King Rezin
King Saul's Jealousy
King Zedekiah
Land Purchase
Lost Soul - Shuffler (Ezekiel 31:14)
Lost Soul - */4 or greater (II Chronicles 15:4)
Lost Soul - Hopper (II Chronicles 28:13) (already a Legacy Rare)
Lost Soul - Site Doubler (Psalm 1:4)
Michael (need a Daniel reference version)
Might of Angels
Moral Decline
Mustering for War
Nebuzaradan
Paying Tribute
Plunderers
Political Bribes
Provisions
Raider’s Camp
Shimei’s Malicious Curse
Siege
Sisera
Spy (already a Legacy Rare)
Sword against Sword
Sword of the Lord
Syrian Archer
Syrian Victory
The Long Day
The Rabshakeh
Troops Discharged
Two Thousand Horses
United Army
Victory
Visions of Iddo the Seer
Words of Encouragement
Worship of Milcom
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E/F Starter Decks
Burial
Freedom!
Gifts of the Magi
Misuse of Talents
Sign of the Rainbow
Slave Trade
Angel Wars
Angry Travelers
Balance
Bound
Chamber of Angels
Consumed by Doubt
Dejected
Demonic Stronghold
Equipped for the Mission
Evil Advice
Failed Objective
Fear of Danger
Fearfulness
Hammer of Heaven
I Am Healing
I Am Holy
I Am Justice
I Am Mercy
I Am Patience
I Am Redemption
I Am Salvation
I Am Truth
In the Clouds
Innumerable
Invisible Beings
Lost Soul (Acts 23:27)
Lost Soul - Anti-Burial (Galatians 3:13)
Lost Soul (James 1:15)
Lost Soul - 1st Round Protect (Matthew 19:26)
Lost Soul - Site Remover (Matthew 8:34)
Lost Soul - Revealer (Romans 3:23)
Lurking
Outnumbered
Primary Objective
Pushed Back
Rebellious
Seeds of Doubt
Seemingly Insignificant
Spiritual Beings
Spiritual Realm
Spiritual Warfare
Subject Deserted
Swift Beings
Sword of the Fighter
Sword of the Guardian
The Darkness
The Pit
The Stars
Torment
Weakness
Weapon of the Holy
Word of Discouragement
Worshipping God
Winds
G/H Starter Decks
Burial
Burning up the Chaff
Dathan
Deceit of Sapphira
Denying Blame
Egyptian Charioteers
Egyptian Horsemen
Great Faith
Imitating Evil
Lost Soul (1 Corinthians 1:27)
Lost Soul - Female Only (Jeremiah 7:18)
Lying Unto God
Moses (already a Legacy Rare)
Moses’ Rod
Murmuring
Preaching the Truth
Reach of Desperation
Sadducees
Sapphira
Taking Egypt’s Wealth
Thrown into the Sea
Trust in the Lord
Zelophehad’s Sin
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Priests
Abiathar
Abihu
Agur
Altar of Ahaz
Altar of Burnt Offering
Altar of Incense
Amariah the High Priest
Angel in the Path
Army of the Lord
Asaph
Assyrian Camp
Azariah the High Priest
Blindness
Bronze Cymbals
Built on Sand
Burning Incense
Carcasses
Carried into Exile
Confusion of Mind
Covenant with Levi
Covenant with Phinehas
Deafening Spirit
Demon behind the Idol
Desolate Gateways
Ethan
Evil Angel
Faith in Our High Priest
Fallen Angel
False Priests
First Fruits
Flee from Enemies
Forgotten History
Go Into Captivity
Grain Offering
Headquarters at Riblah
High Priest Annas
High Priest Caiaphas
High Priest’s Palace
Incurable
Jehoiada’s Strength
Job Overcomes
Jordan Interrupted
Joshua the High Priest
Judas Iscariot
King Merodach-baladan
King of Tyrus
Kingdoms of the World
Lost Soul - Wanderer (Ezekiel 34:6) (Already a Legacy Rare)
Lost Soul - Thorns (II Samuel 23:6)
Lost Soul - Color Guard (Jeremiah 13:10)
Lost Soul - Speed Bump (Matthew 19:23)
Madness
Mildewed House
Oppressed and Robbed
Passover & Unleavened Bread
Pentecost (Already a Legacy Rare)
Pharaoh’s Throne Room
Phinehas, son of Eli
Plagued with Diseases
Pride before Calamity
Pride in Position
Pride in the Flesh
Protection of Angels
Rain Becomes Dust
Sabbath Breaker (Already a Legacy Rare)
Scapegoat
Seizing Spirit
Table of Showbread
The Bronze Laver
The Sabbath
The Silver Trumpets
Unified Kingdom
Unknown Nation
Unsuccessful
Wonders Forgotten
Zeresh
Faith of Our Fathers
***Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:
Assyrian Siege Army (OP)
Deborah’s Directive (OP)
Emperor Galba (toughness)
Expelling the Jews (should just be gray)
Filling Zerubbabel’s Temple (add Reserve access)
Hidden Treasures (OP)
Iron Pan (protect = immune now so it’s redundant)
Jacob (reprinted)
Joseph (reprinted, although I like this version too)
Philistine Armor Bearer (OP)
Rome (needs new ability)
Uzzah (too splashy chump block)
Rock of Ages
***Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:
Ahimelek the Hittite (CBN removal)
Angel with the Secret Name (OP)
Bravery of David (CBN removal)
Eli the Priest (reprinted)
Jeiel (needs new ability)
Melchizedek (reprinted)
Musician’s Chambers (needs new ability)
Repentance and Restitution (CBN removal)
Romans Destroy Jerusalem (CBN removal)
Samuel (reprinted)
Samuel’s Edict (CBN removal)
Stone of Thebez (CBN removal)
The Angel Under the Oak (OP)
The Rabsaris Attacks (CBN removal)
The Throne of David (OP)
Valley of Salt (CBN removal)
Zechariah (needs new ability)
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Thesaurus Ex Preteritus
Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:
Herod’s Treachery (needs new ability)
Jeremiah (needs new ability)
King Asa (needs new ability)
Nebuchadnezzar (as much as I love using him, I have to admit he might be OP)
Samaritan Water Jar (OP for T2)
question: are Gomer and Wandering Spirit ok?
Disciples
Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:
Creeping Deceiver (OP because of wording “cannot be negated by a character)
Elymas the Sorcerer (reprinted)
Gabriel (reprinted)
John the Baptist (needs new ability - he needs to be really awesome and work with SoG, imo!)
Kindness (reprinted)
Philetus (reprinted)
Thaddeus (OP)
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Authority of Christ is the only one. And Obedience of Noah, but that is already a LR. Next set :D
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Haha awesome. Since it sounds like the LRs may get reprinted along with the other older cards, I'll include Obedience of Noah. Anyone think "Stocks" should stay for the combo with Pashur, Repentance for Ezekiel combo, or Stillness for shenanigans? How about Plague of Flies?
Next up:
Prophets
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I think all of those should be updated with enhanced abilities (i.e. cards like Snare and Stocks should still be captures but have something else added). Repentance would be better off not being a "placed" card. Stillness has errata so it definitely needs to be reworked (or printed with its errata ability). Plague of Flies should be remade to be like the other plagues (white/gold/green) IMO.
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All of these need rewording but the basic ability should remain. Some of these have been remade too in later sets but going to include them anyway.
UL
Stocks
Ezekiel’s Stick
Net
Plague of Flies
Rage
Repentance
Snare
Sound the Alarm
Prophets
Great Image
Hunger
Baggage
Cup of Wrath
Dungeon of Malchiah
False Dreams
False Peace
False Prophesy
Filthy Garments
Four Horns
Furnace of God’s Wrath
Ignorance
Lies
Lion Dwelling with the Calf
Paul’s Girdle
River Flowing from the Temple
Torn Mantle
Valley of Dry Bones
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I think all of those should be updated with enhanced abilities (i.e. cards like Snare and Stocks should still be captures but have something else added). Repentance would be better off not being a "placed" card. Stillness has errata so it definitely needs to be reworked (or printed with its errata ability). Plague of Flies should be remade to be like the other plagues (white/gold/green) IMO.
Thanks for explaining regarding each one - I think this is helpful for us moving forward. Given that new cards have ~3 special abilities (unless they have fewer that are very powerful), then cards such as Sound the Alarm/Snare/etc. that have 1 special ability probably would be better put in the "Fix a Card" thread (http://www.cactusforums.com/new-card-ideas/step-right-up!-fix-a-card!-any-card!/).
As far as cards with an errata, I was assuming they would be put in this thread (update wording but keep current SA), so I'll add in Stillness to the list for UL.
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Maybe we need a list of cards that are worth reprinting but completely overhauling from old sets :P although you could say that about any old underpowered card really.
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Maybe we need a list of cards that are worth reprinting but completely overhauling from old sets :P although you could say that about any old underpowered card really.
True- the Fix a Card thread is for this purpose, but you bring up a good point. Many cards that previously had no special ability (or weren't playable) have been upgraded into a new version, but for those that haven't, perhaps it would indeed be useful to have a list of those as well. It's nice to be able to re-use the old art on a new playable card.
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Taking Watchman's suggestions for the Prophets set and adjusting based on Guardian's line of thinking, I updated the list for Prophets. There are definitely some cards that are debatable as far as being competitive in their current state, and I'm sure no one would complain if they were given an extra ability or two (and territory-class in some cases). That being said, there are some really cool cards/abilities from this set which I hope will remain in the game!
Feel free to suggest changes on the first two, but next up is the Women set!
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Not everything needs to be updated to modern power levels. Some cards are very playable with only one or two abilities. Women as Snares found her way into a lot of my reserves last year, and is my main nomination for Women's. Falling Away is debatable, though without it GoYS makes a lot less sense.
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Not everything needs to be updated to modern power levels. Some cards are very playable with only one or two abilities. Women as Snares found her way into a lot of my reserves last year, and is my main nomination for Women's. Falling Away is debatable, though without it GoYS makes a lot less sense.
Great point, I agree. And yes, Women as Snares is an amazing card! It's probably the one card I dread most having played against me in T2- just so devastating mid to late game!!
So Women as Snares and Falling Away are nominated. Any others?
Edit- I just realized though that Falling Away has already been reprinted in CoW...so I'm guessing the old version would be gone in a set rotation format...
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Isn't provisions in prophets? That should stick around IMO.
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Isn't provisions in prophets? That should stick around IMO.
It's in Kings, although I definitely agree it should stay. Would make a great Legacy Rare!
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I went through the Women's list and came up with:
Women as Snares
Lot’s Wife
Temptation
Foolish Advice (already reprinted)
Jael
Midwives (already reprinted)
Scarlet Line
Idle Gossip
Treachery of Jezebel
Potiphar’s Wife
What do you guys think?
Keeping things moving, feel free to suggest Warriors cards next! 8)
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One issue standing in the way of straight reprints is a lot of cards are off theme where they were originally printed.
Foolish Advice probably belongs in Brown with the Job cards, and was put there in RoJ. Same with Job's Wife (not mentioned).
Midwives probably belongs in White with the Exodus theme, and it would probably have the G/H ability.
Getting into Warriors, Ira, Benaiah, and KoT belong in different brigades. (Moses as a LR works because he's still in theme in gold.)
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+1 A vast majority of the older cards are not worth identically reprinting. Most if not all old cards are worth reprinting in some form.
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I agree with you both. I'm trying to not include cards that have already been reprinted, so I'll take off Foolish Advice and Midwives which I missed in that regard, as well as the others you mentioned that belong in other brigades. Thanks!
p.s. That Women's Midwives ability tho! :o
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So here are the cards that I still actually carry with me to tournaments:
Limited/Unlimited:
Authority of Christ
Herodias (Needs an ability)
Obedience of Noah (Already LR)
Repentance (See Guardian's post)
Stocks
Prophets:
Confusion (Reprinted)
Cup of Wrath
Dungeon of Malchiah
False Peace
Great Image
Hunger
Lies
Women:
Claudia (Reprinted)
Falling Away (Reprinted, so probably won't see this one)
Foolish Advice (Reprinted)
Gomer (Reprinted)
Idle Gossip
Jael
Jael's Nail
Job's Wife (Reprinted)
Lot's Wife (Already LR)
Midwives (Needs to be White)
Potiphar's Wife
Women as Snares
Warriors:
Armorbearer (Needs to be Red)
Benaiah (Reprinted)
Captain of the Host
Crown of Thorns
Devourer
Fallen Angel (Reprinted)
Gabriel (Reprinted, though I still like this version!)
Ira (Needs to be Red)
King of Tyrus (Reprinted)
Mask of Fear
Prince of this World (Reprinted)
The Seventh Trumpet
Simeon (Reprinted, though I would like to see a green/gold version)
The Strong Angel (Reprinted, but still like this version)
The Third Seal
Wrath of Satan
So I personally still see several cards from these sets that can be used.
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Worth noting that we've pseudo reprinted Midwives with Shiphrah this year.
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Thanks for the input, guys. So we have for Warriors (taking out cards that have been reprinted or need to be changed):
Crown of Thorns
Devourer
Mask of Fear
I went through the set and didn't see any others worthy of making the list, imo. I'm assuming Dragon's Wrath (RoJ) is essentially a reprint of Wrath of Satan, although they have different art and a slightly different verse (same context though). Also, I'm assuming that all of the Trumpets will get reprinted at some point, so I left off the 7th as I'm sure it would be made to match the others.
So unless you guys have any other suggestions regarding the Warriors set, the C/D starters is next!
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For the C/D Starter Decks, I only found Roman Prison as potentially worth keeping as-is from what hasn't been reprinted already. Also I switched Obedience of Noah to go under C/D instead of the Unlimited as I realized it was in the C deck.
Next up is Apostles
I'll open it up with suggesting:
NT-Only Lost Soul (Acts 11:18)
Household Idols
Christian Suing Another
Burial Shroud
Zaccheus
Transfiguration
Good Samaritan
Ananias
Elders of Jerusalem (all 3)
Three Nails
Great Mourning
Wall of Protection
Ship to Cyprus
Unholy Writ
What do you guys think? Feel free to comment on this, any of the previous, or the next set, Patriarchs!
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For the C/D Starter Decks, I only found Roman Prison as potentially worth keeping as-is from what hasn't been reprinted already. Also I switched Obedience of Noah to go under C/D instead of the Unlimited as I realized it was in the C deck.
Next up is Apostles
I'll open it up with suggesting:
NT-Only Lost Soul (Acts 11:18)
Household Idols
Christian Suing Another
Burial Shroud
Zaccheus
Transfiguration
Good Samaritan
Ananias
Elders of Jerusalem (all 3)
Three Nails
Great Mourning
Wall of Protection
Ship to Cyprus
Unholy Writ
What do you guys think? Feel free to comment on this, any of the previous, or the next set, Patriarchs!
I think there needs to be more apostles cards on this list in my opinion.
Here is my list:
Apostles:
A new creation
A Roman Soldier's Faith
Ananias
Angel of Deliverance
Angelic Rebellion
Angry Mob
Benefitign from Troubles
Burial Shroud
Christian suing Another
Controlling Demon
Crucify Him
Damascus
Desertion
Elders of Jerusalem (black border)
Elders of Jerusalem (orange border)
Elders of Jerusalem (purple border)
Elymas (Bar-Jesus) the Sorcerer (reword ability)
Emperor Claudius
Emperer Nero (reprint needed)
Entertaining Angels
Ethiopian Treasurer
Great Mourning
Good Samaritan
God's Provision
Gamaliel (reprint needed)
Fishers of Men
Face of Death
Herod Antipas (has this been reprinted??)
Herod the Great
Household Idols
Hostility
Joseph the Carpenter (reprint needed)
Lacking sleep
Lay down your Life
Messenger of Satan
Men as Gods
Massacre of Innocents
Luke
Lost Soul (N.T only)
Lost Coin Found
Leper Colony
Lazarus
Miraculous Hankerchiefs
Narrow Escape
Peter
Pharisees (all art versions)
Sadducees (all art versions)
Sowing the Seed
Simon the Magician
Ship to Cyprus
Saul/Paul
Satan's Folly
Sanctifying Faith
Take as a Slave
The meal in Emmaus
30 pieces of silver
Thomas
three nails
Titus
Trapped in Cleverness
Unholy Writ
Transfiguration
Unity in Christ
Vengance of Eternal Fire
Wall of Protection
Zaccheus
I know half of these cards probably aren't top tier for competitive play anymore , but they are not completely useless either. I think they still have their uses.
For anyone who is new to the game or still likes to try and make use of some of the older cards , I strongly believe these cards from the apostles set should stay or get reprinted ( with the exact same brigade and number stats they were originally printed ) with updated worded abilities.
For example: An evil gold brigade Emperor Claudius could still be useful in a Herod or Egyptain defense.
Have a big list of all cards I think should be stay or at least get reprinted , just in case a set rotation happens. Stay tuned.
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Thanks for the input! A number of the cards you listed have been reprinted already, and while I agree that it would be useful to have different versions of a card, I assume that the goal is to have 1 playable version of each card.
So, taking out those that have been reprinted, cards that I already listed, and cards that need obvious changes (ex: Emperor Nero needs warrior class and Gamaliel should be clay) here's what's left, which I'll add to the ongoing "master list":
A Roman Soldier's Faith
Angelic Rebellion
Benefiting from Troubles
Desertion
God's Provision
Face of Death
Herod Antipas
Hostility
Lacking Sleep
Lost Coin Found
Leper Colony
Sadducees (all art versions)
Sowing the Seed
Sanctifying Faith
Take as a Slave
The Meal in Emmaus
30 Pieces of Silver
Would love to have your continued input on other sets - thanks again! :)
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So like last time, these are the cards in my boxes that I feel could be put into a deck.
C/D Starter:
Swift Horses (Reprinted)
Apostles:
Christian Suing Another
Elymas (Bar-Jesus) the Sorcerer (Reprinted)
Emperor Nero
Ethiopian Treasurer
Good Samaritan
Household Idols
Messenger of Satan (Reprinted)
Pharisees (3 variants)
Sadducees (3 variants)
Saul / Paul
Simon the Magician (Reprinted)
Three Nails
Unholy Writ
Unity in Christ (Reprinted)
Wall of Protection
Zaccheus
Patriarchs:
Abraham's Servant to Ur
Achan's Sin (Reprinted)
Babel (Reprinted, but I think this would still be a good card to have)
Balaam's Disobedience (Already LR)
Battle Cry
Blessings
Covenant of Noah
Covenant of Palestine
Covenant with Adam
Creation of the World (Probably needs to be Blue)
Death of Unrighteous (Already LR)
Destruction of Nehushtan
Dream
Egyptian Wise Men
Esau (Reprinted)
Gibeonite Trickery (Reprinted)
Haman's Plot
Hur (Probably needs to be White)
Joseph in Prison
Korah's Rebellion
Leviathan (Reprinted)
Midianite Attack
Moses kills Egyptian
New Beginning, A (Reprinted)
Pharaoh's Magicians
Sarah's Jealousy
Storehouse
Surprisingly, I feel like almost every card that hasn't been reprinted or needs to change colors could easily be a LR from these sets. As a whole Apostles was a pretty weak set but had a few quality cards, that are still being played. I always felt Patriarchs had some of the best enhancements, and I still play with some of them!
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That's super helpful, Crash! We already have the C/D and Apostles cards you listed that aren't reprints, so I'll use your Pats list to start that one off. Taking out the reprinted and ones clearly needing changed leaves us with:
Abraham's Servant to Ur
Balaam's Disobedience (Already LR)
Battle Cry
Blessings
Covenant of Noah
Covenant of Palestine
Covenant with Adam
Death of Unrighteous (Already LR)
Destruction of Nehushtan
Dream
Egyptian Wise Men
Haman's Plot
Joseph in Prison
Korah's Rebellion
Midianite Attack
Moses kills Egyptian
Pharaoh's Magicians
Sarah's Jealousy
Storehouse
Additionally, after going through the set myself, I think the following are also potentially worthy of keeping:
Ambush
Arrogance
Begging for Grain
Blue Tassels
Coercion
Death of Firstborn
Disobedience
Jacob's Ladder
Joseph's Brother's Scheme
Joseph's Silver Cup
Korah
Providing Angel
Water Shaft
Unless there's any other comments on Patriarchs, the next set is Kings!
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Strength in Weakness from Apostles could also benefit from new wording.
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Awesome, thanks Hobbit! I'll add it in! 8)
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Here is my list of Patriarchs cards:
Patriarchs:
A new beginning
Abel's Sacrifice
Abraham's Servant to Ur
Achan's Sin
All Hope Lost
Altar of Dagon
Ambush
Angelic Advice
Arrogance
Babel
Balaam's Disobedience
Battle Cry
Begging for Grain
Blessings
Blue Tassels
Death of Unrighteous
Danites Attack
Creation of the World
Covenant with Moses
Covenant with Adam
Covenant of Salt
Covenant of Palestine
Covenant of Noah
Covenant of Eden
Covenant of Abraham
Confused Languages
Cain
Deepening Lie
Demon in Armor
Destorying Angel
Destruction of Nehushtan
Disobedience
Dream (all varients)
Egyptain Wise Men
Ehud
Elders of the City
Eli the Priest
Enoch
Esau
Flight of Spies
Foretelling Angel
Gibeonite Trickery
Gideon's Call
Haman's plot
Hur
Isaac Deceived
Jacob's Dream
Jacob's Ladder
Jawbone
Jephthah
Jeruslam Tower
Joseph before Pharaoh
Joseph in Prison
Joseph's Brothers Scheme
Joseph's Silver Cup
Judah's Sin
Korah
Korah's Rebellion
Leper
Patriarch Travels
Passover
Paladin
Moses Kills Egyptian
Moses and Elders
Midianite Attack
Love at First Sight
Pit
Prosperity
Protection of Jerusalem
Providing Angel
Sarah's Jealousy
Wool Fleece
widow
Water Shaft
Trust
Three Angels
The Wages of Sin
The gods of Egypt
Storehouse
Stolen Idols
Stolen Blessing (SA one)
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DoN needs a reprint, but it won't be identical, because it's worded backwards - it discards, then negates when it should be "negate and discard".
Egyptian Wise Men was reprinted in FoM - it only bands to Exodus Egyptians, but has Reserve access.
Haman's Plot will probably lose the rip component if it gets reprinted.
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Haman's Plot will probably lose the rip component if it gets reprinted.
And hopefully lose the CBN...? Or make it conditional like 'if used by Haman'?
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Thanks for the input on Patriarchs, guys. I updated the master list accordingly. For Kings, whew, it's a huge set. :o Here's what I've got for it:
Ambush the City
Angel’s Sword
Archers of Kedar
Asherah Pole
Bearing Bad News
Besieging the City
Captain of the Host
Chariots of the Sun
Chemosh
Coat of Mail
Dart
David’s Harp
Devourer
Displeased Philistines
Disuading Speech
Egyptian Archer
Fallen Warrior
Hadad Arises
Israel Pays Tribute
Josiah’s Covenant
King Ahaziah
King Jeroboam I
King Jotham
King Nadab
King Omri
King Rezin
King Zedekiah
Land Purchase
Lost Soul - Shuffler (Ezekiel 31:14)
Lost Soul - */4 or greater (II Chronicles 15:4)
Lost Soul - Hopper (II Chronicles 28:13) (already a Legacy Rare)
Lost Soul - Site Doubler (Psalm 1:4)
Michael (need a Daniel reference version)
Might of Angels
Mustering for War
Nebuzaradan
Paying Tribute
Plunderers
Political Bribes
Provisions
Raider’s Camp
Shimei’s Malicious Curse
Siege
Sisera
Spy (already a Legacy Rare)
Sword against Sword
Sword of the Lord
Syrian Archer
Syrian Victory
The Long Day
The Rabshakeh
Troops Discharged
Two Thousand Horses
United Army
Victory
Visions of Iddo the Seer
Words of Encouragement
Any other thoughts on Kings are welcome, or feel free to suggest cards from the next set: E/F Starters
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Pressing ahead, here's what I have for the E/F starters:
Burial
Freedom!
Gifts of the Magi
Misuse of Talents
Sign of the Rainbow
Slave Trade
As always, any suggestions on any sets is welcome...on to Angel Wars. (this should be a quick one :laugh:)
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As always, any suggestions on any sets is welcome...on to Angel Wars. (this should be a quick one :laugh:)
Que
/end AW list
::)
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Haha that's basically what I was assuming going into it as well :laugh: It seems that the vast majority of Angel Wars packs that I've opened have not been very exciting, to put it kindly!
But after going through the set, I was surprised by the number of at least fairly helpful cards! Here's what I came up with for what could be considered for keeping as-is post-rotation:
Balance
Bound
Chamber of Angels
Consumed by Doubt
Demonic Stronghold
Equipped for the Mission
Failed Objective
Fearfulness
Hammer of Heaven
I Am Healing
I Am Holy
I Am Justice
I Am Mercy
I Am Patience
I Am Redemption
I Am Salvation
I Am Truth
In the Clouds
Innumerable
Invisible Beings
Lost Soul (Acts 23:27)
Lost Soul - Anti-Burial (Galatians 3:13)
Lost Soul (James 1:15)
Lost Soul - 1st Round Protect (Matthew 19:26)
Lost Soul - Site Remover (Matthew 8:34)
Lost Soul - Revealer (Romans 3:23)
Lurking
Outnumbered
Primary Objective
Spiritual Beings
Spiritual Realm
Spiritual Warfare
Swift Beings
Sword of the Fighter
Sword of the Guardian
The Darkness
The Pit
Torment
Weakness
Weapon of the Holy
Word of Discouragement
Suggestions on this or any previous sets welcome...otherwise next up is the G/H Starters...only 6 sets left!!
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List of Kings cards:
Kings:
Abiezer
Abishai
Abishai's Spear
Abner
Abner's Spear
Absalom (reprint needed)
Absalom's Soldiers (reprint needed)
Adino
Ahimaaz
Ahitophel (reprint needed)
Amasa (reprint needed)
Ambush the City
Angel of his Prescence
Angel of the Waters
Angel's Sword
Answered Prayer
Archers of Kedar
Ark of the Covenant
Artifacts Destoryed
Asherah Pole
Backward Shadow
Battle Prayer
Bearing Bad news
Benaiah
Beniah Snatches a spear
Besieging the City
Book of Hozai
Book of jasher
Bow and Arrow
Break down the Wall of Gath
Breastplate of Righteouness
Captain of the Host
Chemosh
Coat of Mail
Courage
Dart
David's Harp
David's Victory
Destruction of Babylon
Devourer
Displeased Philstines
Disuading Speech
Egyptain Archer
Ehud's Dagger
Elon
Evil Spirit
Faith of David
Fallen Warrior
five smooth stones
Gabriel
Gathering of Angels
Gibeonite Treaty
Glittering Sword
Glory of the lord
Helez
Helmet of Brass
Helmet of Salvation
Hezekiah's Signet Ring
Ira
Israel pays Tribute
Israelite Archer
jair
Jashobeam
Jashobeam's Spear
Jehu's Sword
Joshua burns the City
Josiah's covenant
Kerith Ravine
King abijah
King ahaz
King ahaziah
King Amaziah
King Amon
King Asa
King Ben-hadad 1st
King Elah
King Hezekiah
King hoshea
King Jehoahaz (5/7)
King Jehoram
King Jehoshaphat
King Jeroboam 1st
King Joash
King Joram
King josiah
King Jotham
King Menaham
King Nadab
King omri
King Pekahiah
King Rehoboam
King Rezin
King Saul (brown)
King Saul's Jealousy
King Sennacherib
King Shihsak
King So
King Tiglath pileseser 3rd
King Zedekiah
King Zimri
Land Purchase
LS (4 or greater)
LS (hopper)
LS (site doubler)
LS (shuffler)
Maharai
Michael
Might of Angels
Momentum change
Moral decline
Mustering for War (all versions)
Nebuzaradan
Paying Tribute
Pekah"s Blade
Plunderers
Pharoah neco (reprint needed)
Political bribes
Political Savvy
Posterity Removed
Prince Jonathan
Provisions
Put to Flight
Queen Maachah
Raider's Camp
Recruiting Officer
Rezon Arises
Saint of Virtue
Satan Released
Shadow of Death
sword against sword
sword
Struck with blindness
strength Revealed
spy
spear and shield
Sound the Trumpet
solomon dedicates temple
Sisera
siege
Shimei's Malicious Curse
shield of faith
Shamhuth
sword of the lord
Syrian archer
syrian victory
Tekoan Woman
temple of nisroch
The Acts of Solomon
the long day (reprint needed)
The Rahshakeh
The Strong Angel
The Testimony
Tola
Tower
treasures of war
troops discharged
two thousand horses
united army
valley of salt
valor of warriors
victory
Visions of iddo the seer
Wall's Collaspe
War officer
withered hand
woman of wisdom
words of encouragement
worship of milcom
King Shallum
King Pekahiah (These five kings just for the 1/1 stats)
King Jehoiakin
KIng Jehoahaz
King Elah
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I would be very disappointed if most of those cards were reprinted as Legacy Rares. If this has turned into a list of every card that needs to be reprinted you might as well put every card on the list...
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Angel Wars list:
Angel Wars:
angry travelers
Arianna
Balance
chamber of angels
commissioned
confused
consumed by doubt
dejected
demonic deception
demonic snare
Eli
Equipped for the Mission
evil advice
failed objective
Fear of Danger
Fearfulness
Habitation of demons
I am creator
I am Grace
I am Healing
I am holy
I am justice
I am Merch
I am Patience
I am Redemption
I am Salvation
I am Truth
in the clouds
Inumerable
Kira
LS (anti-burial)
LS ( anti-withdraw)
LS (demon discard)
LS (evicter)
LS (revealer)
LS (first round protect)
Lurking
Michael
Mission deviation
Multitude
All panic demons
outnumbered
Paladian the fighter
shadow (storehouse version)
Seemingly insignificant
Seeds of rebellion
seeds of doubt
rebellious
pushed back
Praise him moon
Possessed
spirit of doubt
spiriutal warfare
stealing
subject deserted
swift
swift beings
sword of the Guardian
the darkness
worshipping god
words of discouragement
Winds
weakness
torment
Threatened lives
The Stars
The pit
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Previous lists I missed:
Limited/Unlimited
Authority of christ
Balm of Gilead
Chains
Cage
Bread of LIfe
Ezekiel's Stick
Healing
Gideon
Leaves for Healing
Net
Obedience of Noah
Sleep
Samson
Repentance
plague of flies
Prayer and Fasting
Snare
Stocks
Prophets:
Baggage
Covenant with Death
Cup of Wrath
Den of Robbers
Dungeon of Malchiah
Elisha's Bones
False Dreams
False Peace
Filthy Garments
Iron Pan
Ignorance
Hunger
highway
Great Image
Furance of God's Wrath
Four Horns
Large Tree
Lies
Molech Worship
Paul's Gridle
The vineyard
River flowing from the Temple
Potter and the Clay
Torn Mantle
Two Olive Branches
Valley of Dry Bones
Wheel within a Wheel
Womens:
Assyria
Babylon
Children
Claudia
Coat of Many colors
Egypt
Elisabeth
Falling Away
Foolish Advice
Gomer
Great Faith
Idle Gossip
Jael
Jael's Nail
Jairus daughter
Lot's Wife
Lost soul (female only)
Lion's Den
Laughter
Lamenting for Jepthah's Daughter
KIng's Daughter
Job's Wife
Mary Magdalene
Mary of Bethany
Media
MIdwives
Pharaoh's Prison
Potiphar's Wife
Praises
Women as Snares
Treachery of Jezebel
Sorrow of mary
Scorn of Michal
Scarlet Line
Sapphira
Rizpah's Sackcloth
Reach of Desperation
Warriors:
Angel in the Path
Ark of the Covenant
Armorbearer
Bad figs
Battle Prayer
Beast from the sea
Benaiah
Boils
Bow and Arrow
Captain of the Host
Chariot of Fire
Cherubim
Crown of thorns
Death and Hades
Devourer
Gabriel
Five Smooth Stones
Fiery Serpents
Fallen Angel
Faith as Children
Elijah's Mantle
Ehud's Dagger
Edge of the Sword
Dragon Raid
glittering sword
Harvest Time
Holy Grail
Ira
King of Tyrus
Land Made Waste
Leprosy
New Jerusalem
Moses
Mask of Worldliness
Mask of Vanity
Mask of Self glorification
Mask of Fear
Mask of Arrogance
Ointment
Pestilence
Poison
Prince of this World
Red dragon
rod of Iron
All trumpet cards
All Seal cards
The book of life
stirring the Water
Simeon
Shamhuth
Seraphim (band to Green)
Seraphim (band to blue)
The Strong Angel
Tormentors
Wrath of Satan
Here is my revised list of cards.
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I would be very disappointed if most of those cards were reprinted as Legacy Rares. If this has turned into a list of every card that needs to be reprinted you might as well put every card on the list...
I don't think most of these cards should be reprinted as legacy rares. In my opinion I think if 3 upto 10 sets get rotated , then maybe they should make another "reprint set" with most of the cards listed on this forum and make then all easy to obtain.
For example one pack of the "reprinted cards from the previous sets on these lists on this topic" would be 15 cards from the card pool of X amount of reprinted cards for $2 each pack or something like that.
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I would be very disappointed if most of those cards were reprinted as Legacy Rares. If this has turned into a list of every card that needs to be reprinted you might as well put every card on the list...
I don't think most of these cards should be reprinted as legacy rares. In my opinion I think if 3 upto 10 sets get rotated , then maybe they should make another "reprint set" with most of the cards listed on this forum and make then all easy to obtain.
For example one pack of the "reprinted cards from the previous sets on these lists on this topic" would be 15 cards from the card pool of X amount of reprinted cards for $2 each pack or something like that.
I just think the lists have strayed away from the original point which was "the cards pre-I/J that we think are good as-is (aside from needing updated wording)"
No doubt a reprint set would include many old cards with completely new abilities but I had the understanding that these lists were supposed to be cards that are balanced in the current meta and worthy of being reprinted as LRs.
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+1
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@TP1 & Gabe - I agree, we should tighten up these lists to aim for cards that are at least somewhat close to the newest sets in terms of caliber. That's not to say that there shouldn't be niche/combo cards...it's just that I'm trying for this thread to be a community one and so I've been trying to just be a compiler for everyone and not eliminate cards that I personally don't feel belong on the list.
@RC777 - thanks so much for the lists! With the above in mind, would you be willing to trim down your suggestions based on the aim of just selecting cards that are somewhat on par with cards from the most recent sets? Or for me or anyone else to help with that? This can go for any of the cards suggested so far by anyone, btw. Once again, I really appreciate your input! :)
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@TP1 & Gabe - I agree, we should tighten up these lists to aim for cards that are at least somewhat close to the newest sets in terms of caliber. That's not to say that there shouldn't be niche/combo cards...it's just that I'm trying for this thread to be a community one and so I've been trying to just be a compiler for everyone and not eliminate cards that I personally don't feel belong on the list.
@RC777 - thanks so much for the lists! With the above in mind, would you be willing to trim down your suggestions based on the aim of just selecting cards that are somewhat on par with cards from the most recent sets? Or for me or anyone else to help with that? This can go for any of the cards suggested so far by anyone, btw. Once again, I really appreciate your input! :)
Absolutely I can revise all of my lists to make them a little smaller at a later time.
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@TP1 & Gabe - I agree, we should tighten up these lists to aim for cards that are at least somewhat close to the newest sets in terms of caliber. That's not to say that there shouldn't be niche/combo cards...it's just that I'm trying for this thread to be a community one and so I've been trying to just be a compiler for everyone and not eliminate cards that I personally don't feel belong on the list.
@RC777 - thanks so much for the lists! With the above in mind, would you be willing to trim down your suggestions based on the aim of just selecting cards that are somewhat on par with cards from the most recent sets? Or for me or anyone else to help with that? This can go for any of the cards suggested so far by anyone, btw. Once again, I really appreciate your input! :)
Maybe I am not completely understanding what this tread is about...
Is this tread about what cards should be reprinted as legacy rares in other sets for the future?? or what cards should stay and not be rotated out???
In my opinion I was suggesting all the these cards I listed , that should not be rotated out and should stay and can still be used. As my previous example reprint most cards on these lists and include them in a whole new "Reprint set" instead of making them legacy rares. (or is the legacy rares just bonus cards with different art??)
Example keep the black brigade foolish advice card around even though the brown one is made... (I believe it can still be useful nowadays)
Not sure maybe I should post my thoughts , ideas on another tread???
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I think the current plan is if there is set rotation, the legacy rares would be reprinted as part of the reprint set with borders instead of full art - so the cards would be available, but not as fancy.
On something like Foolish Advice, I'm not opposed to keeping the black one - I just don't think it will happen.
Going back to the list at the beginning:
Prophets:
I'm not sure False Dreams should be on the list - in 2P, if played while blocking, it restricts you, not your opponent. It's a functional card, but I'm not sure how many players would think through what it says.
Women:
I'm assuming the Female Only will fall under G/H?
C/D:
Priests Roman Prison has an ability and seems to be a better candidate to reprint, but even that could be improved.
Apostles:
No Pharisees?
Herod Antipas probably gets an upgrade to discard John the Baptist or the top card of the opponent's deck (similar to Herod Agrippa I in TEC), so he can do something if there's no John the Baptist.
Patriarchs:
Covenant with Adam should be blue, if it remains a Covenant (it's more of a Curse, really).
Jawbone seems too narrow - maybe if it always worked and was only CBN on Samson, instead of only working on Samson.
Pharaoh's Magicians should not be a draw. (It would be simplest as a straight reveal, but it could be a look and reveal evil.) And it needs to be part PG.
Protection of Jerusalem was reprinted in FF and that version is probably a better candidate for reprinting.
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@RC777 - thanks for revising the lists!
@RedemptionAggie - thanks for all of that input. It was very helpful!
So my understanding is that the Legacy Rares are going to be a select few cards which in number will be much smaller than the total number of cards being reprinted (which will include the Legacy Rares). So these lists that we're compiling from Unlimited to Disciples (all old card-face sets) of cards that would potentially be good to be reprinted (as-is, except with updated wording) can be much longer than what we imagine for a list of Legacy Rares. Ultimately, the elders will make the call about which cards will be reprinted - I trust this community list will be really helpful input for them. That being said, we still should try to select cards that would realistically see play among the most recent card sets. Finally, once again I am assuming that we should aim for just the most recent printing of a certain card, and not more than one version (potentially with exceptions such as a Daniel and Revelation Michael).
I'll update the master lists after going through RC777's updated lists and RedemptionAggie's suggestions.
Thanks again guys!
Update for RedemptionAggie:
- I took out False Dreams from Prophets. I had not realized that either! ::)
- For the Female Only LS, yes I'll put it under G/H since that's the most recent version.
- Regarding Roman Prison, I was using Lackey and after looking back at it see that the art for the 2nd edition version is actually the Priests version! So yes I took that out.
- For the Apostles 3 Pharisees cards, I'm assuming that there will be 1 "band-all" card like the G version Sadducees after the 3 Apostles Sadducees cards
- I took out Herod Antipas (Ap), Cov. with Adam, Jawbone, Pharaoh's Magicians, and Protection of Jerusalem (Pa) based on your input.
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@RC777 - thanks for revising the lists!
@RedemptionAggie - thanks for all of that input. It was very helpful!
So my understanding is that the Legacy Rares are going to be a select few cards which in number will be much smaller than the total number of cards being reprinted (which will include the Legacy Rares). So these lists that we're compiling from Unlimited to Disciples (all old card-face sets) of cards that would potentially be good to be reprinted (as-is, except with updated wording) can be much longer than what we imagine for a list of Legacy Rares. Ultimately, the elders will make the call about which cards will be reprinted - I trust this community list will be really helpful input for them. That being said, we still should try to select cards that would realistically see play among the most recent card sets. Finally, once again I am assuming that we should aim for just the most recent printing of a certain card, and not more than one version (potentially with exceptions such as a Daniel and Revelation Michael).
I'll update the master lists after going through RC777's updated lists and RedemptionAggie's suggestions.
Thanks again guys!
Update for RedemptionAggie:
- I took out False Dreams from Prophets. I had not realized that either! ::)
- For the Female Only LS, yes I'll put it under G/H since that's the most recent version.
- Regarding Roman Prison, I was using Lackey and after looking back at it see that the art for the 2nd edition version is actually the Priests version! So yes I took that out.
- For the Apostles 3 Pharisees cards, I'm assuming that there will be 1 "band-all" card like the G version Sadducees after the 3 Apostles Sadducees cards
- I took out Herod Antipas (Ap), Cov. with Adam, Jawbone, Pharaoh's Magicians, and Protection of Jerusalem (Pa) based on your input.
Will continue to look through my lists and probably take out a few more cards in the next few days.
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Will continue to look through my lists and probably take out a few more cards in the next few days.
Thanks! I just went through them too and added to the master lists all the ones you suggested that haven't already been listed, haven't already been reprinted, aren't in the wrong brigade, have only 1 SA that isn't especially useful, etc. At least a few were added to each list, so it's been really helpful to have your input!
I'll get the G/H list started soon, but would appreciate your help on that one too 8)
Edit:
G/H List-
Burial
Burning up the Chaff
Dathan
Deceit of Sapphira
Denying Blame
Egyptian Charioteers
Egyptian Horsemen
Great Faith
Lost Soul (1 Corinthians 1:27)
Lost Soul - Female Only (Jeremiah 7:18)
Lying Unto God
Moses’ Rod
Murmuring
Preaching the Truth
Reach of Desperation
Sadducees
Sapphira
Taking Egypt’s Wealth
Thrown into the Sea
Trust in the Lord
Zelophehad’s Sin
Taking input on G/H, anything prior, or the next set: Priests! (another massive one like Kings - 251 cards! :o)
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Jerusalem Tower probably shouldn't be on the list, because it's a terribly worded card (restrict instead of protect).
Backward Shadow does not help against toss, because toss is RoP.
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Jerusalem Tower probably shouldn't be on the list, because it's a terribly worded card (restrict instead of protect).
Backward Shadow does not help against toss, because toss is RoP.
Updated by taking both of those out, thanks. Now working on Priests and it's tough because (imo) so many cards are "playable" even by modern standards...I don't want to just choose the most powerful cards only because of power creep. So I'll do my best with the initial list and it might be long but it can always be narrowed down later.
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Ok here's my Priests list.
Notes: "Place” SA cards I’m assuming should be territory class. Didn’t include any CBI/CBN removal. King of Tyrus and “Prince” demons I’m assuming should be warrior class. Urim and Thummim - is it too powerful that it can immediately hide itself?
Abiathar
Abihu
Agur
Altar of Ahaz
Altar of Burnt Offering
Altar of Incense
Amariah the High Priest
Angel in the Path
Army of the Lord
Asaph
Assyrian Camp
Azariah the High Priest
Blindness
Bronze Cymbals
Built on Sand
Burning Incense
Carcasses
Carried into Exile
Confusion of Mind
Covenant with Levi
Covenant with Phinehas
Deafening Spirit
Demon behind the Idol
Desolate Gateways
Ethan
Evil Angel
Faith in Our High Priest
Fallen Angel
False Priests
First Fruits
Flee from Enemies
Forgotten History
Go Into Captivity
Grain Offering
Headquarters at Riblah
High Priest Annas
High Priest Caiaphas
High Priest’s Palace
Incurable
Jehoiada’s Strength
Job Overcomes
Jordan Interrupted
Joshua the High Priest
Judas Iscariot
King Merodach-baladan
King of Tyrus
Kingdoms of the World
Lost Soul - Wanderer (Ezekiel 34:6) (Already a Legacy Rare)
Lost Soul - Thorns (II Samuel 23:6)
Lost Soul - Color Guard (Jeremiah 13:10)
Lost Soul - Speed Bump (Matthew 19:23)
Madness
Mildewed House
Oppressed and Robbed
Passover & Unleavened Bread
Pentecost (Already a Legacy Rare)
Pharaoh’s Throne Room
Phinehas, son of Eli
Plagued with Diseases
Pride before Calamity
Pride in Position
Pride in the Flesh
Protection of Angels
Rain Becomes Dust
Sabbath Breaker (Already a Legacy Rare)
Scapegoat
Seizing Spirit
Table of Showbread
The Bronze Laver
The Sabbath
The Silver Trumpets
Unified Kingdom
Unknown Nation
Unsuccessful
Wonders Forgotten
Zeresh
If no comments regarding this set, up next is Faith of Our Fathers! This is gonna be tough from now on...
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KoT???
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KoT???
I put a note about KoT at the top of the list- I'm assuming that he would get warrior class because he's a king
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KoT???
I put a note about KoT at the top of the list- I'm assuming that he would get warrior class because he's a king
Warrior class is given because someone is noted for fighting in battle. Most earthly kings qualify but not all do (see King Lemuel). I don't see anything in the passage about KoT that makes me think he's fighting in battle.
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Even if KoT isn't a warrior, he might warrant black, since he's a Canaanite. He could get the Moses treatment - a different version as black/orange and the identical reprint as orange. And speaking of Moses, he should be on either the Warriors or G/H list since he's a Legacy Rare this year.
I'd actually reprint the C/D HoH since it's always CBN, instead of just during the battle phase, and CoW Moses exists.
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Warrior class is given because someone is noted for fighting in battle. Most earthly kings qualify but not all do (see King Lemuel). I don't see anything in the passage about KoT that makes me think he's fighting in battle.
OK gotcha, thanks for explaining. I forgot about King Lemuel. KoT is added in (even though he might get reprinted as black/orange as RedemptionAggie noted).
Even if KoT isn't a warrior, he might warrant black, since he's a Canaanite. He could get the Moses treatment - a different version as black/orange and the identical reprint as orange. And speaking of Moses, he should be on either the Warriors or G/H list since he's a Legacy Rare this year.
I'd actually reprint the C/D HoH since it's always CBN, instead of just during the battle phase, and CoW Moses exists.
Thanks as well- lists updated accordingly.
So I see (based on Moses and what you're saying about KoT) that my assumption that we would just go with the newest version of a card is incorrect. I had viewed the newest versions as being the "definitive" version that would replace all older versions in a set rotation world. I was wondering why there would be an older/inferior version kept in the game of a reprinted card.
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Continuing with FooF and RoA, since most are quite competitive cards, I decided to only list the ones that need their special abilities changed (imo). I gave a little explanation for each one:
Faith of Our Fathers
Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:
Assyrian Siege Army (OP)
David’s Mighty Men (CBN removal)
Deborah’s Directive (OP)
Emperor Galba (toughness)
Expelling the Jews (should just be gray)
Filling Zerubbabel’s Temple (add Reserve access)
Hidden Treasures (OP)
Iron Pan (protect = immune now so it’s redundant)
Jacob (reprinted)
Joseph (reprinted, although I like this version too)
Philistine Armor Bearer (OP)
Rome (needs new ability)
Uzzah (too splashy chump block)
Rock of Ages
Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:
Ahimelek the Hittite (CBN removal)
Angel with the Secret Name (OP)
Bravery of David (CBN removal)
Convincing Miracle (CBN removal)
Eli the Priest (reprinted)
Jeiel (needs new ability)
Melchizedek (reprinted)
Musician’s Chambers (needs new ability)
Repentance and Restitution (CBN removal)
Romans Destroy Jerusalem (CBN removal)
Samuel (reprinted)
Samuel’s Edict (CBN removal)
Stone of Thebez (CBN removal)
The Angel Under the Oak (OP)
The Rabsaris Attacks (CBN removal)
The Throne of David (OP)
Valley of Salt (CBN removal)
Zechariah (needs new ability)
TxP and Disciples are next and the last 2 sets of this project. Any suggestions, comments, etc. are welcome. And once again, I think it'll be easier to just list the ones that need changed, as the caliber of these sets is pretty comparable to I/J-present. Thanks everyone!
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Good lists and solid reasoning, Jesse.
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Continuing with FooF and RoA, since most are quite competitive cards, I decided to only list the ones that need their special abilities changed (imo). I gave a little explanation for each one:
Faith of Our Fathers
Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:
Assyrian Siege Army (OP)
David’s Mighty Men (CBN removal)
Deborah’s Directive (OP)
Emperor Galba (toughness)
Expelling the Jews (should just be gray)
Filling Zerubbabel’s Temple (add Reserve access)
Hidden Treasures (OP)
Iron Pan (protect = immune now so it’s redundant)
Jacob (reprinted)
Joseph (reprinted, although I like this version too)
Philistine Armor Bearer (OP)
Rome (needs new ability)
Uzzah (too splashy chump block)
Rock of Ages
Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:
Ahimelek the Hittite (CBN removal)
Angel with the Secret Name (OP)
Bravery of David (CBN removal)
Convincing Miracle (CBN removal)
Ehud’s Dagger (CBN removal)
Eli the Priest (reprinted)
Jeiel (needs new ability)
Melchizedek (reprinted)
Musician’s Chambers (needs new ability)
Persian Presidents (CBN removal)
Repentance and Restitution (CBN removal)
Romans Destroy Jerusalem (CBN removal)
Samuel (reprinted)
Samuel’s Edict (CBN removal)
Scattered (CBN removal)
Stone of Thebez (CBN removal)
The Angel Under the Oak (OP)
The Rabsaris Attacks (CBN removal)
The Throne of David (OP)
Valley of Salt (CBN removal)
Zechariah (needs new ability)
TxP and Disciples are next and the last 2 sets of this project. Any suggestions, comments, etc. are welcome. And once again, I think it'll be easier to just list the ones that need changed, as the caliber of these sets is pretty comparable to I/J-present. Thanks everyone!
Scattered is in the new tin and therefore uses the new format I think? I could be wrong. Even if it isn't, CBN removal on condition of 'more than one opponent' in battle isn't something that has been gone away from in recent sets. Faith of Samson and Faith of Barak are examples. Ark of the Covenant (RoJ) gives entire themes that ability...
As for the no CBN removal and protection if that is a solid rule for Legacy cards how does Balaam's Disobedience make the cut this year?
I think certain conditional CBN cards can make the cut, Ehud's Dagger and Persian Presidents for example.
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+1 personally I believe there is a place in the game for CBN abilities. While I think certain sets probably went a bit too far (notably the FooF/RoA II tins), having some CBN in the mix keeps the game from being a FBTN/FBTN banding meta that ruled for so long. Additionally, introducing cards such as Coliseum, TSA (RoJ) and Overtaken creates further tension in how many of those CBN cards players think they can afford to include. While Coliseum certainly took a hit with the introduction of Three Woes, I think people gave up on it too quickly. Every time I run into it in games these days, it always seems to be at least somewhat effective in limiting my options--especially if I needed to use Three Woes as evil and can't target it for negation anyway.
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Thanks for the input, Gabe, Kor, and Guardian. I forgot that Tin 26 is in the new format, so I'll take off Scattered. And about CBN removal, I think pretty much all of it is conditional, isn't it? I like The Guardian's point about it being a balancer vs. FBTN(B) and agree that some (Samuel's Edict, Bravery of David) are more powerful/OP than others (Persian Presidents, David's Mighty Men). Knowing the elders will be the ones to draw the lines, I'll just make the specific suggestions Kor made and leave it at that for now.
Working on TxP/Di now...
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Ok here's what I've got for the final 2 sets, TxP and Di. As with the last 2, I listed the ones that should not be kept as most are good as-is already (imo).
Thesaurus Ex Preteritus
Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:
Herod’s Treachery (needs new ability)
Jeremiah (needs new ability)
King Asa (needs new ability)
Nebuchadnezzar (as much as I love using him, I have to admit he might be OP)
Samaritan Water Jar (OP for T2)
The Entrapping Pharisees (CBN removal - although it gives the opponent an out so maybe it’s ok?)
question: are Gomer and Wandering Spirit ok?
Disciples
Keep all abilities as-is (just update wording) except:
Creeping Deceiver (OP because of wording “cannot be negated by a character)
David’s Triumph (CBN removal)
Elymas the Sorcerer (reprinted)
Gabriel (reprinted)
John the Baptist (needs new ability - he needs to be really awesome and work with SoG, imo!)
Kindness (reprinted)
Philetus (reprinted)
Thaddeus (OP)
Any suggestions are welcome on these 2, or any of the previous sets.
Otherwise, that's all! Thanks for the input, everyone! I pray these lists are helpful for the elders if/when set rotation happens! :)
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I don't think Triumph is really an issue or needs changing, as it's only CBN against a philistine and only targets male humans (which, with the Symbolic Horsemen and plethora of demons these days, is problematic.) The CBN is too conditional to ever come into play.
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I don't think CBN removal is needed to keep FBTN in check. CBP removal would do the job just as well without taking away interaction in the battle phase.
That being said, some CBN removal is OK. When it comes to CBN removal a good rule of thumb is to think about how reliable it is to make it CBN. Does it rely on the opponent's deck building (David's Triumph, DMM, Ehud's Dagger)? Probably OK. Does it give the opponent an "easy" out (The Entrapping Pharisees)? Probably OK. Does it rely on a condition that is difficult to meet consistently (Convincing Miracle)? Probably OK. Is it only CBN a small number of characters (Valley of Salt, Zeal for the Lord)? TBH I'm on the fence with these. Does it rely on the opponent's choices in game (Scattered, Fo Samson, Fo Barak)? Probably OK. Does it provide a one time stall block situationally (Balaam's Disobedience)? Probably OK.
Hopefully that helps add some clarity. I don't speak entirely for the elder team on that list but generally speaking that is where our discussion has led as to what we feel is healthy for the future. If we have an opportunity to create a new environment we'd like it to be one where reliable CBN removal doesn't exist.
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Yes that's really helpful! I'll adjust the lists based on the specific cards you mentioned in that post.
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I don't think CBN removal is needed to keep FBTN in check. CBP removal would do the job just as well without taking away interaction in the battle phase.
That being said, some CBN removal is OK. When it comes to CBN removal a good rule of thumb is to think about how reliable it is to make it CBN. Does it rely on the opponent's deck building (David's Triumph, DMM, Ehud's Dagger)? Probably OK. Does it give the opponent an "easy" out (The Entrapping Pharisees)? Probably OK. Does it rely on a condition that is difficult to meet consistently (Convincing Miracle)? Probably OK. Is it only CBN a small number of characters (Valley of Salt, Zeal for the Lord)? TBH I'm on the fence with these. Does it rely on the opponent's choices in game (Scattered, Fo Samson, Fo Barak)? Probably OK. Does it provide a one time stall block situationally (Balaam's Disobedience)? Probably OK.
Hopefully that helps add some clarity. I don't speak entirely for the elder team on that list but generally speaking that is where our discussion has led as to what we feel is healthy for the future. If we have an opportunity to create a new environment we'd like it to be one where reliable CBN removal doesn't exist.
I agree that CBP can deal with FBTN chains in a balanced way.
However, it is interesting that you mention being on the fence about CBN on a small number of characters and specifically mention Valley of Salt and Zeal for the Lord. Those are actually the situations that I am worried about if CBN becomes more limited in availability. Especially because those interrupt AND battle win CBN. Remembering playing back during Priests, Phinehas>Zeal x5 was extremely hard to deal with as there were much more limited evil options for CBN win(aside from capture which Z's temple protected from). And even if those 2 enhancements aren't reprinted we have Peter>Elymas Struck Blind that will be very strong if there aren't CBN options on defense. I'm not sure how to get around this other than chumping every turn, and doing that doesn't especially make for an interesting combat phase either.
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...it is interesting that you mention being on the fence about CBN on a small number of characters and specifically mention Valley of Salt and Zeal for the Lord. Those are actually the situations that I am worried about if CBN becomes more limited in availability.
"I'm on the fence" isn't all that accurate. "We're on the fence" would have been a better way to present that. ZftL was on the LR list this year until very late in the process (and looked amazing btw!) but was replaced by Pentecost when I talked our team into waiting so we can better assess it for a hypothetical future meta. I don't think Zeal is healthy, especially with The Tabernacle (P). VoS might be OK without reprinting Throne in it's current form, but I doubt that too.
...we have Peter>Elymas Struck Blind that will be very strong if there aren't CBN options on defense. I'm not sure how to get around this other than chumping every turn, and doing that doesn't especially make for an interesting combat phase either.
Since the ship has sailed on Peter+ESB if we find that's a problem for T2 we can address that with more cards like Confusion (CoW) that are designed to have a greater impact on multiple copies in T2.
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FWIW, I have yet to see anyone abuse Peter and all the Acts battle winners in a T2 deck (even the interrupt ones like ESB and Preaching in Synagouge), which makes me think the issue is more with CBN battle winners that can be used by a variety of characters (Edict, Bravery of David) or ones that can be easily recurred (Zeal).
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FWIW, I have yet to see anyone abuse Peter and all the Acts battle winners in a T2 deck (even the interrupt ones like ESB and Preaching in Synagouge), which makes me think the issue is more with CBN battle winners that can be used by a variety of characters (Edict, Bravery of David) or ones that can be easily recurred (Zeal).
+1
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It definitely isn’t a problem currently, but most good battle winners currently are CBN, and Peter has no way to play first. I just could see a meta happening in a reduced card pool where it could be.
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Ah, I see what you're saying. Basically if you remove the strongest options, all that means is that the next tier of options becomes the strongest (almost an inverse power creep in a sense).
In a meta with no CBN battle winners, characters like Michael, Thomas, Peter and Simon the Magician become the powerhouse characters. 8)
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Exactly, especially with interrupt and win options.
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Michael+Angel's Sword back in the meta, baby!
I think everyone is in agreement that CBN interrupt battlewinners are no fun to play against. Here's an interesting game design question to discuss: what combinations of these ARE okay?
I don't see anyone complaining about CBN negates like Ruthless, so I'll assume that those are fine. But what sort of conditions/drawbacks are needed to make a non-interrupting CBN battlewinner or a non-CBN interrupt+battlewinner balanced?
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That being said, some CBN removal is OK. When it comes to CBN removal a good rule of thumb is to think about how reliable it is to make it CBN. Does it rely on the opponent's deck building (David's Triumph, DMM, Ehud's Dagger)? Probably OK. Does it give the opponent an "easy" out (The Entrapping Pharisees)? Probably OK. Does it rely on a condition that is difficult to meet consistently (Convincing Miracle)? Probably OK. Is it only CBN a small number of characters (Valley of Salt, Zeal for the Lord)? TBH I'm on the fence with these. Does it rely on the opponent's choices in game (Scattered, Fo Samson, Fo Barak)? Probably OK. Does it provide a one time stall block situationally (Balaam's Disobedience)? Probably OK.
I feel like Gabe's recent post in this thread explains the conditions well. Basically, for CBN battle-winners to be balanced they need to not be easy to pull off.
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Id really hate to lose a lot of the interrupt and battle win cards simply because they have a cbn clause. I would suggest maybe using more conditional cbn stuff. An example would be like having unity to be cbn but otherwise be fully functional just without the cbn.
Looking at the meta cbn enhancements that are easy to use/reuse can be a problem but id argue that characters that have good initiative and can provide cbn are just as bad. Joseph, King Zed, and Demetrius are great examples. If you address things like this you can have things like ET > AOCP come back which can be just as bad. There are so many good options that hitting everything may be difficult because other options are still very good and can rise to the forefront. Chump blocks are another thing that can be out of hand. A great example is that almost all reserves will at least have 1 copy of a card like uzzah or hermogenes.
The process of figuring out what cards to keep as is post rotation and what is ok in general post rotation will likely be a long and difficult discussion that will not be perfect. CBN may be at the forefront of most conversations but CBN stuff isnt what dominates the meta right now. Some CBN options maybe but otherwise not as much as say recursion.
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+1
Despite there being some problematic/OP cards out there, I feel like the meta is pretty wide open right now. We'll have to see what happens after FoM is released, but it seems to me that a good number of themes & strategies can legitimately be "top tier". That's not easy to achieve from a game design standpoint and as some have mentioned, may be difficult to retain post-rotation. I'm just glad though that the elders are always proactively working on making the game balanced and fun! 8)