Author Topic: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion  (Read 1094 times)

Offline Mr.Hiatus

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split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« on: June 21, 2018, 07:38:25 PM »
+4
Now if only we could get a poll to separate T1 and T2...
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 11:59:13 AM by jbeers285 »
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kariusvega

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Re: Re: Is Texas Nats going to move back to Top Cut?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 10:12:39 PM »
0
Now if only we could get a poll to separate T1 and T2...

Such a great suggestion..

Offline SEB

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Re: Re: Is Texas Nats going to move back to Top Cut?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2018, 10:05:02 AM »
0
And not have type 1 on Thursday - makes it harder for a work week
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Re: Re: Is Texas Nats going to move back to Top Cut?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2018, 10:38:26 AM »
+1
I think they meant doing them on different days (T1 & T2 2P).

Because of the size of the field, T2 2P is usually close to a Top Cut already...it's fairly common for the player that wins their final 3 matches to end up winning (assuming they did not lose their first three).
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Offline uthminister [BR]

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Re: Re: Is Texas Nats going to move back to Top Cut?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2018, 10:42:48 AM »
0
Quote
Event Schedule:
Thursday Events: Type-1 2-Player (Top-Cut Method); Type-2 2-Player; Type-A
Friday Events: 2-Player Booster Draft (draft in even pods of 4-5 and play 2-Player games); Type-1 Multi-Player
Saturday Events: Type-2 Multi-Player; Sealed Deck; Type-1 Teams

So if we took Type-2 2-Player and swapped it with Type-2 Multi-Player, would that satisfy the request adequately.

Also, if we swapped Type-1 2-Player with 2-Player Booster Draft, would that satisfy the other request adequately.

*SECTION/GLOBAL MOD: Perhaps split this conversation off to another thread if it takes over the current discussion.

Offline Red

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Re: Re: Is Texas Nats going to move back to Top Cut?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2018, 11:09:57 AM »
0
Quote
Event Schedule:
Thursday Events: Type-1 2-Player (Top-Cut Method); Type-2 2-Player; Type-A
Friday Events: 2-Player Booster Draft (draft in even pods of 4-5 and play 2-Player games); Type-1 Multi-Player
Saturday Events: Type-2 Multi-Player; Sealed Deck; Type-1 Teams

So if we took Type-2 2-Player and swapped it with Type-2 Multi-Player, would that satisfy the request adequately.

Also, if we swapped Type-1 2-Player with 2-Player Booster Draft, would that satisfy the other request adequately.

*SECTION/GLOBAL MOD: Perhaps split this conversation off to another thread if it takes over the current discussion.
Why not just swap the positioning of the two T2 categories? Then switch days between Thursday and Friday?
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Offline uthminister [BR]

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Re: Re: Is Texas Nats going to move back to Top Cut?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2018, 11:52:47 AM »
0
That is certainly an option. We have positioned the Thursday and Friday events where they are for specific purposes both in timing and in promotion with our local player base. Not sure we want to swap whole days.

Offline SEB

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Re: Re: Is Texas Nats going to move back to Top Cut?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2018, 12:04:35 PM »
0
That is certainly an option. We have positioned the Thursday and Friday events where they are for specific purposes both in timing and in promotion with our local player base. Not sure we want to swap whole days.

That makes perfect sense! Make sure to take care of your guys!
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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2018, 03:06:14 PM »
+1
Just to be clear, I am not interested in changing the schedule that we have had released for quite some time at this point. Only if there is a large number of participating and attending players who express an interest in changing will we make any drastic moves. Type-1 2-Player will be Top Cut as has been announced. Events will stay where they are currently otherwise.

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2018, 03:54:34 PM »
+1
Just to be clear, I am not interested in changing the schedule that we have had released for quite some time at this point. Only if there is a large number of participating and attending players who express an interest in changing will we make any drastic moves. Type-1 2-Player will be Top Cut as has been announced. Events will stay where they are currently otherwise.

Tradition as I'm aware has been to have T1-2P on Friday so as to allow the most people possible to participate in that event. I am blessed with a very flexible job and a lack of responsibilities that enable me to almost certainly be present for each day but this is the first year that has been the case. I know many people are unable to attend most of the day on Thursday due to work or other obligations and I'm a little worried about the category that I believe most people consider the "main event" being on an off day.

Offline TheHobbit

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2018, 03:56:32 PM »
+2
tbh I don't know why splitting type 1 and type 2 is not the standard. The scheduling conflicts are overrated. Because there are never back-to-back categories, the worst that can happen is categories do not finish at the same time (off by 30 mins at most?). Basically players come to play so why not let them? And more importantly it makes the competition in both type 1 and type 2 so much better.

Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2018, 05:08:32 PM »
+2
I’m 100% for T2 2P and T1 2P on different days and would welcome any change to the schedule to do this.
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2018, 05:39:09 PM »
+1
I will say that keeping the 2 player categories does encourage people to play some of the other lesser played categories as a whole. I feel that separation of the 2 really is basically saying constructed multiplayer and limited are less important so lets schedule those formats less favorably. I dont think thats fair to the categories that are trying to be overshadowed.

Also switching the days on stuff will hurt those who have to leave early potentially. I have never been able to play on a Saturday and as such if i found out i had to miss out on a category because of a change that was on relatively short notice id be bummed. I can see swapping Thurday and Friday schedules but im sure that would upset someone as well and so I cant really advocate changing much when what we currently have is acceptable and has been known for a while.

There is no perfect schedule for everyone. Having the constructed 2 player categories together I feel is better since those are the categories most players have to choose between normally anyways. Its nothing new that there are people who play type 2 and there are those who abide by "friends dont let friends play type 2" or simply those who dont/cant delve into type 2 due to restrictions. Its a choice most make and while many players are capable of playing either easily there is normally a preference between the two. Other formats matter too so leaving a long held distinction in place I feel is nothing new, is healthy for having players devote time to a specific format, and still offers plenty of Redemption play for all in many diverse ways.

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2018, 05:45:47 PM »
0
To shorten my last post.

I dont think we should make changes to the schedule for this year as it has been out for a while and is bound to conflict/someone else by doing so. We are a month and a half away so I feel like the schedule set forth already should not change as keeping the staus quo is the safest option for this year.

I think discussions of an ideal schedule for Nats is good but is something that needs more time and input from many players so I think if nothing else conversations on this should continue and should be attempted to be implemented at the next years Nats.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 06:23:38 PM by The Schaefer »

kariusvega

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2018, 07:09:25 PM »
+2
Being able to play t2 and T1 2p last year was awesome

Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2018, 07:23:50 PM »
0
I see what you are trying to say Schaefer but I couldn’t disagree more. A month and a half away. If you can’t plan accordingly for a card tournament on what categories you want to play with a month and a half in advance then nothing’s going to fix that. Why not put it up to a vote if you’re saying someone will always be upset? The point is to make the least amount of people upset and please the masses. I don’t like that I have to be “encouraged” to play the lesser played categories because the 2players are on the same day, I want to be happy about each category I’m playing. My perspective for this nationals is that it’s pretty much done after the FIRST day. Both 2 player categories are done on, statistically, the least attended day, then you get to choose between sealed which has been the same for how many years, or a multi category and Saturday being sealed and another multi category I believe. The new set has already been released so booster doesn’t capture the same excitement so after Thursday is done, that’s it. Why not encourage more competition which creates more excitement and open up the playing field for the main 2 player categories to not only have a larger field, but a more competitive play style. Thursday, being the least attended day, could have T2 2P, and Friday, being the highest in attendance, would have T1 2P. Sealed, booster, teams and t1/2 multis will be distributed so people only have to choose one different category, and some people love teams so that would be an easy choice for them.
At least put it up to a vote is all I’m requesting.
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2018, 08:11:22 PM »
0
I see what you are trying to say Schaefer but I couldn’t disagree more. A month and a half away. If you can’t plan accordingly for a card tournament on what categories you want to play with a month and a half in advance then nothing’s going to fix that. Why not put it up to a vote if you’re saying someone will always be upset? The point is to make the least amount of people upset and please the masses. I don’t like that I have to be “encouraged” to play the lesser played categories because the 2players are on the same day, I want to be happy about each category I’m playing. My perspective for this nationals is that it’s pretty much done after the FIRST day. Both 2 player categories are done on, statistically, the least attended day, then you get to choose between sealed which has been the same for how many years, or a multi category and Saturday being sealed and another multi category I believe. The new set has already been released so booster doesn’t capture the same excitement so after Thursday is done, that’s it. Why not encourage more competition which creates more excitement and open up the playing field for the main 2 player categories to not only have a larger field, but a more competitive play style. Thursday, being the least attended day, could have T2 2P, and Friday, being the highest in attendance, would have T1 2P. Sealed, booster, teams and t1/2 multis will be distributed so people only have to choose one different category, and some people love teams so that would be an easy choice for them.
At least put it up to a vote is all I’m requesting.

Your position inherently has bias that puts all other categories beneath 2 player ones whether intentional or not. Thats not something I agree with at all. Not everyone feels that the other categories should get the scraps of whats left of the 2 player categories. I was upset last year choosing between type 2 and booster as an example. You can say lets just vote on it but the simple point is by the time anything could be done there would be a month until Nats and with a young meta from a new set being introduced I think that the conpetitiveness doesnt get any better by shaking things up in that short amount of time. Having players devote their time to a format does just as much. Having more players for type 2 could be good but im not willing to weaken other categories to do it which I feel will happen. Im ok with switch friday and thirsday schedules which addresses some of your complaints but i dont think the 2 player categories should be split. Thats a personal opinion and its fine if you and others disagree. I really just dont think changes should be made to the schedule this late in the tournament season is the big thing and feel this should have been brought up and discussed when the schedule was first released almost 2 months ago. I tend to support the safer option here. Unfortunately that doesnt lend itself well to a vote as you prescribed for this nats. Im not opposed to voting for a nats schedule. Just not for this Nats

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2018, 08:13:10 PM »
+5
Only twice in my time has T1-2P and T2-2P been on separate days. Those 2 years have had the best schedule because the most talented players were able to test their skills in the two most skill intensive categories. I don’t see any reason that shouldn’t be the standard.

I was once told that they are paired together because of concern that one person would dominate both categories. That doesn’t seem like a good reason to split the elite players up IMO.
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Offline Red

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2018, 12:04:36 AM »
+1
I echo both Gabe and Mr. Hiatus. I tremendously enjoy playing both T1 and T2-2P.
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Offline ReyZen

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2018, 01:07:40 AM »
+2
Thank you for all your contributions to this thread, brethren.

I trust with great confidence that whatever the final say is of the hosting team, our beloved players will honor and respect. Travis may have already made a conclusive reply. I fully defer to that.

Just to be clear, I am not interested in changing the schedule that we have had released for quite some time at this point. Only if there is a large number of participating and attending players who express an interest in changing will we make any drastic moves. Type-1 2-Player will be Top Cut as has been announced. Events will stay where they are currently otherwise.

We have announced the events schedule early enough. At the least, please be informed that Booster Draft will remain as a Friday event.

Meanwhile, while we spend the last few weeks honing our decks and closed deck strategies, that we may never forget to teach the game to as many new players as we can whether they make it to Nats 2018 or not. This for me is far more of a victory compared to just winning our categories. Otherwise, all our expert gaming skills are in vain.

Travel mercies to all attending upcoming tourneys, and Nats 2018.

Peace and Blessings all.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 01:11:44 AM by ReyZen »
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Offline Red

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2018, 08:23:54 AM »
0
At the least, please be informed that Booster Draft will remain as a Friday event.

Why? I'm still puzzled by this utter break in the traditional schedule.
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Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2018, 12:36:41 PM »
0
Please correct me if I am wrong as I in no way mean any sort of disrespect, I just think this year's nationals is geared more towards sales than appeasing the masses.
Last year was in Iowa and Booster and T2 2 player were on Thursday, Friday had T1 2 player and T2 MP.
2016: Booster/T2 MP Thursday. Friday both 2 players.
2015: Thursday, Booster/T2 MP. Friday both 2 players.
You see a pattern? The most well received schedule was probably Iowa with both 2 player categories being available to play. Now this year the least attended day has BOTH 2 player categories and the highest attended day, Friday has booster. I honestly think that is to increase sales and not please the masses. I don't fault this at all but I do hope the majority of players are being considered. I always encourage change so long as the intent is positive I just don't see any other reason for this change other than capture as many sales from booster as possible. This schedule doesn't give T2 players any sort of benefit, and I understand we are the minority, but it also encourages everyone to play booster because t1 multi is always the least played category. With a change to schedule this will push even more sales towards booster but also appease the majority. At least with T2 on Friday you would still encourage maximum participation in booster and have the T2 players play T2, but also give them excitement on Thursday to play a 2 player category. Thursday would be T1 2P, TA 2P, T2 MP. Friday would be Booster and T2 2P, you could add teams here or T1 MP if needed. Saturday would be Teams or T1 MP, or Sealed. This still gives maximum participation to Booster on Friday, gives everyone the option to play both 2 player categories, gives the field more competition which is always a plus, and Saturday is still the normal Saturday that allows people to leave early if necessary. I personally think this is the best schedule and should be the standard, it makes the most sense. Ultimately, I feel like this schedule is geared towards everyone playing booster to maximize sales in this category. Like I stated when I first started this post, please let me know if I am wrong on any of this and in no way do I mean any sort of disrespect as I have the utmost respect for all National hosts, and personally know Travis and Roy, it is merely just an observation and I hope something that gets a response, and potentially corrected.   

Then Friday, T2 players can still play their respective T2 category if so they choose. T1 players nor booster players are affected by this. Thursday would be T1 2 player, TA 2p, and T2 MP perhaps
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2018, 03:25:19 PM »
-1
I may be in the minority but i oppose any change to put a constructed 2 player category with booster. Sales aside both T1 and T2 players should have the option to play booster and not have to sacrifice 2 player. I hated that I had to not play booster if I wanted to play type 2 in Iowa. Im not the only one who had an issue with that either.

Part of why booster may be on friday could be the change in format. The more people able to evaluate the 2 player booster the more feedback we can get about it. Im not saying that is a great reason to have it on friday but it could be.

Swapping the schedules of thursday and friday seems like it might be ok but those in charge of scheduling would have to evaluate the concerns of players that have been raising their voice for change with the issues of changing the schedule for the largest tournament of the season at the last minute.

Offline ReyZen

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2018, 06:49:30 PM »
+2
Blessings all.

This would be my last reply for this thread. Please be at peace that there is absolutely no negative feelings in my heart for all comments made that may have been contrary to the hosting team's thoughts. I love y'all.

The official events schedule was posted on 05 May 2018. Not to justify anything, but the posting did get initial majority positive responses such as:

06 May 2018:
Sweet schedule. Finally 2 player booster!!

06 May 2018:
Great Schedule Travis! Now I just need to figure out which day I'm judging.....

06 May 2018:
Great Schedule Travis! Now I just need to figure out which day I'm judging.....

There is absolutely no relationship between making Booster Draft a Friday event and making money out of it, although it is indeed a great help for Cactus to get more out of it as it rightfully deserves.

We are excited and blessed to feature 2-Player Booster Draft for the first time in history at a Redemption national tournament. We wish it to be held at what we know would historically be the most attended day. And so, yes, Texas has prioritized Booster Draft as a main highlight of sorts for Nats 2018, with all due respect to the traditional highlighted categories.

This year, we also mainly dedicate Friday to newer players who may well be majority attendees at Nats 2018, eager to boost their card collection. It will be such an honor to see all seasoned players help the newer ones with advice on best strategies for booster drafting using a 2-Player play format, pre-draft as well as at the drafting table.

I appreciate and respect all sincere thoughts on this thread especially from my sons who are dearly close to my heart. Most of them were just a young kids when I first met them. Some are now in the military serving our country. Some are young church pastors. I am so proud of y'all.

In closing, I defer to any final say made by Travis on the matter which I believe he already has made. Let all be at peace with this final say.

Thanks and Godbless, all.

Peace. And more peace.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 07:53:07 PM by ReyZen »
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Offline Xonathan

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2018, 07:11:51 PM »
0
I like the idea of putting sealed on Thursday so new players can get starter decks they can use for the rest of the tournament. With booster draft the next day, new players will have a lot of resources and some experience to play T1-2p on Saturday. Just my two cents
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Offline Red

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2018, 07:22:05 AM »
+1
I like the idea of putting sealed on Thursday so new players can get starter decks they can use for the rest of the tournament. With booster draft the next day, new players will have a lot of resources and some experience to play T1-2p on Saturday. Just my two cents
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Offline Gabe

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Re: split from top cut thread: nats schedule discussion
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2018, 09:48:30 AM »
+2
06 May 2018:
Great Schedule Travis! Now I just need to figure out which day I'm judging...

I'd like to point out that I was only partially quoted and was not showing my "like" or "support" for the chosen schedule. I was giving my friend John a hard time for something he'd just said to me.

The Nationals schedule is up to the host, although I found that it's a good idea to make sure you coordinate with the MC (Chris) and your support team. Making sure events are run in a way that they end around the same time is challenging and takes a lot of thought when putting together the schedule. Unless you've hosted Nationals before I imagine you probably don't understand the impact that has.

I love having Nationals in TX! I love what Travis, Roy and the rest of the hosting team are doing for the game! They have my full support and blessing for all their efforts! But I can't say that I like any schedule that 1) runs T1-2P and T2-2P on the same day or 2) runs top cut in any form other than best 2 out of 3. But unless I'm the one hosting my opinion on those things really doesn't matter and I'm not going to pretend like it should. The point being, whether or not I like the schedule is far outweighed by my gratefulness and understanding of all that is demanded of the hosting team both leading up to the tournament and during the tournament.

Tyler, thank you for the tact and gentleness with which you shared your concerns. From the perspective of a veteran player I see how it does appear that the schedule might be made in such a way that TLG moves the most product and veteran player's desires are being overlooked. Having worked closely with Travis for a number of years I believe I have a very good feel for his heart. I've seen him be generous and sacrifice personal gain so many times that I'm certain person gain is not his driving force. It's more likely that his love for Redemption and desire to see it grow and become better has created great excitement for the prospect of 2P-Booster, leading him to believe that should be the primary focal point of the tournament. Also, IIRC booster is usually one of the larger events and will require more time when run as 2 player.

All of the concerns brought up about this year's schedule should be strongly considered for future Nationals. But it would be a mistake to change the schedule for this year. Since it's been out for several weeks it's possible that people who can only attend 1-2 days have already made vacation requests, travel plans and/or purchased tickets based on the announced schedule. We have no way of knowing for certain. For many of us that plan to attend all 3 days that's something we can overlook.

Sadly I will not be able to attend Nationals this year. I made plans to be there but God has directed my steps otherwise. I will try to have peace with his plans and miss my first Nationals since I started playing.

**EDIT** Through God's generosity I will be able to attend Nationals this year! All praise and glory be to Him!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 02:40:01 PM by Gabe »
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