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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Playgroup and Tournament Central => Redemption® Official Tournaments => Topic started by: Gabe on April 01, 2019, 11:33:56 AM

Title: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Gabe on April 01, 2019, 11:33:56 AM
Soon Cactus games will be able to offer a new tournament winner promo! The elder team has felt for some time that New Jerusalem (dominant) could use an update. We've tested this version and feel that accomplishes our goal of being under the power level of TSC while giving players that don't own TSC a good alternative.

Spoiler (hover to show)

A few years ago Pat Watertor (H20tor on here) suggested that we make a SoG/NJ that make a picture when put side by side. We didn't have any luck finding art that would work for that until just recently...

In lieu of this plan (http://www.cactusforums.com/official-tournaments/tournament-application-updated-2019/msg593501/#msg593501) Rob has agreed to give out 2 new promos at the 25th Annual National tournament!!!

Want a set of these? Me too! Start making your plans to get to Nationals now!!!

Spoiler (hover to show)
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: 777Godspeed on April 01, 2019, 11:39:43 AM
Those are pretty slick, especially the side by side SoG/NJ... Redemption raises the bar, once again, on pure awesomeness. Just wish I could make it to Nationals...

Godspeed,
Mike


Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Bobbert on April 01, 2019, 11:52:18 AM
I like how NJ can copy your opponent's dominants.

These are very pretty cards - I'm looking forward to adding them to my collection!
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Sean on April 01, 2019, 12:28:24 PM
When is the last time a tournament has been won by someone who didn't have TSC in their deck?  I ask because if this is a winner promo, how are the players who don't have TSC going to get this card without avoiding the cost of trading away other high value cards? 
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Red Dragon Thorn on April 01, 2019, 12:31:13 PM
When is the last time a tournament has been won by someone who didn't have TSC in their deck?  I ask because if this is a winner promo, how are the players who don't have TSC going to get this card without avoiding the cost of trading away other high value cards? 

I understand where you're coming from, and agree to a degree - What I'll say is:
 A) If you're lucky enough to get to nationals you'll get a version.
 B) With enough copies at nationals, highly likely that we'll see low prices from TLG, or a potential give-away on LoR for articles written etc.
 C) We've seen with past tournament winner cards they very quickly become ubiquitous to the point where the players that are winning can trade for low value, or even give away to the players that want them.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Kevinthedude on April 01, 2019, 12:44:38 PM
When is the last time a tournament has been won by someone who didn't have TSC in their deck?  I ask because if this is a winner promo, how are the players who don't have TSC going to get this card without avoiding the cost of trading away other high value cards?

I won plenty of local, district, and state tournaments and got 2nd at Nats with my trusty old NJ. Also I've found that any playgroup that runs small tournaments even semi-regularly tends to get a surplus of tournament winner promos pretty quick so I don't expect that you'll have to trade much for the new NJ once it's been out for a bit.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Sean on April 01, 2019, 01:17:50 PM
That is reassuring.  The idea is great as is the artwork, especially for the Nationals versions.  It just seems a little counter intuitive to have it as a winner's promo.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Gabe on April 01, 2019, 01:26:20 PM
That is reassuring.  The idea is great as is the artwork, especially for the Nationals versions.  It just seems a little counter intuitive to have it as a winner's promo.

As a basis for comparison the last 2 winner promos on TLG are $8 (Dragon Raid) and $5 (Harvest Time). Many of my local and district tournaments are won by players without high end cards. Also winner promos are common enough here that they are often given away.

If you want NJ the month it’s released you’ll find it’s a little more difficult to come by. But by this time next year I’d be shocked if anyone who wants it doesn’t have one or can’t get it easily.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 01, 2019, 02:17:26 PM
Is this for real? This is Gabe posting kn April 1st...
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Kevinthedude on April 01, 2019, 02:27:20 PM
Is this for real? This is Gabe posting kn April 1st...

It'd be an awfully disappointing joke. Those Lost Soul spoilers however...
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Lampy 2.0 on April 01, 2019, 02:35:56 PM
Man, that promo set is beautiful. Can't wait to register for Nats this year!
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Ironisaac on April 01, 2019, 09:46:09 PM
Is this for real? This is Gabe posting kn April 1st...

He showed them off at t2 only this weekend, it's legit.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Gabe on April 02, 2019, 09:55:29 AM
Is this for real? This is Gabe posting kn April 1st...

He showed them off at t2 only this weekend, it's legit.

April 1st is behind us and I can assure you these are very legit! 8)
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: thecoolguy on April 02, 2019, 11:10:05 AM
I would gladly use this NJ over second coming
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 02, 2019, 11:12:34 AM
So if your opponent plays 3 woes as good and you copy it, would new new Jerusalem stay out as a 3 woes?
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: The Guardian on April 02, 2019, 11:13:42 AM
Copy abilities last until the end of the current phase by default so once the next phase began, it would be discarded.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Gabe on April 02, 2019, 11:19:43 AM
So if your opponent plays 3 woes as good and you copy it, would new new Jerusalem stay out as a 3 woes?

Copy abilities last until the end of the current phase by default so once the next phase began, it would be discarded.

Quote from: REG>Copy
Unless otherwise specified, copy effects last until the card with the copy effect leaves the Field of Battle.

I think Justin was going from memory, but the REG says copy abilities only work in the field of battle. Since the Dominant is never in the field of battle as soon as you place the 3W copy in territory it ceases to copy. I imagine you could get an instant negate effect by copying 3W with NJ (new) but it would be immediately discarded.

FTR the copy entry probably needs to be revisited and could end up working more like what Justin describes.

Quote from: Three Woes
Place in territory: Negate a card of a different alignment than this card for one round. Each upkeep, you may negate a card of a different alignment than this card for one round.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: The Guardian on April 02, 2019, 01:45:39 PM
Ah right, I was going from memory, and forgot about the Field of Battle condition.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Isildur on April 02, 2019, 04:35:59 PM
If I'm not mistaken... The new New Jerusalem would effectively bring back dominant slapjack, correct?

The new New Jerusalem just says last good dominant which means it could copy your opponents. Granted the game won't have "literal" slap jack like before since dominants are no longer instant speed but how it's currently worded... you could still copy your opponent's cards if I'm not mistaken.

If I was still playing I'd totally be down for that but considering how big of a deal it was back in the day when slapjack was removed I'm a bit shocked to see it come back.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Gabe on April 02, 2019, 04:44:06 PM
If I'm not mistaken... The new New Jerusalem would effectively bring back dominant slapjack, correct?

The new New Jerusalem just says last good dominant which means it could copy your opponents. Granted the game won't have "literal" slap jack like before since dominants are no longer instant speed but how it's currently worded... you could still copy your opponent's cards if I'm not mistaken.

If I was still playing I'd totally be down for that but considering how big of a deal it was back in the day when slapjack was removed I'm a bit shocked to see it come back.

You are mistaken. The only real solution to "dominant slapjack" was to institute "dominant initiative". The active player (whose turn it is) gets to play as many dominants as they desire, then the opportunity to play dominants passes around the table in turn order.

This does bring back the opportunity to "play New Jerusalem off your opponent's Son of God" if it was the last good Dominant they played. 8)
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Isildur on April 02, 2019, 04:50:24 PM
This does bring back the opportunity to "play New Jerusalem off your opponent's Son of God" if it was the last good Dominant they played. 8)
Ahhh I misunderstood how dominant initiative worked then. Still, the above quoted is what I thought was possible!

Shocked to see that scenario back a comeback but I won't say that I'm complaining! In vintage Redemption, there was always a risk in playing SoG and I always thought that added a layer of strategy that was lost when "slapjack" was eliminated.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: faithraider on April 02, 2019, 08:25:33 PM
Hey, what if you NJ someone else's NJ, that just copied SOG?  And then someone copied your NJ?  Does every version of NJ get to rescue a lost soul?

Just want to see how far the chain reaction goes?    I'm imagining a conga line of NJ's in multiplayer.

Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: thejambi on April 02, 2019, 08:34:41 PM
Hey, what if you NJ someone else's NJ, that just copied SOG?  And then someone copied your NJ?  Does every version of NJ get to rescue a lost soul?

Just want to see how far the chain reaction goes?    I'm imagining a conga line of NJ's in multiplayer.

Based on this, I think it works each time effectively copying SoG - http://www.cactusforums.com/strategies-and-combos/how-to-win-in-one-turn-without-making-a-single-successful-rescue-attempt!*/ (http://www.cactusforums.com/strategies-and-combos/how-to-win-in-one-turn-without-making-a-single-successful-rescue-attempt!*/)
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Gabe on April 02, 2019, 08:36:34 PM
Hey, what if you NJ someone else's NJ, that just copied SOG?  And then someone copied your NJ?  Does every version of NJ get to rescue a lost soul?

Just want to see how far the chain reaction goes?    I'm imagining a conga line of NJ's in multiplayer.

You can use NJ (copied SoG) to copy NJ and create a conga line of NJs.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Kor on April 02, 2019, 09:16:23 PM
So it becomes a bit more risky to play this on your opponents turn right?  As they could theoretically play a good dominant (like Glory) in between Son of God and NJ.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Isildur on April 03, 2019, 01:39:37 AM
Hey, what if you NJ someone else's NJ, that just copied SOG?  And then someone copied your NJ?  Does every version of NJ get to rescue a lost soul?

Just want to see how far the chain reaction goes?    I'm imagining a conga line of NJ's in multiplayer.

You can use NJ (copied SoG) to copy NJ and create a conga line of NJs.
Really? Wouldn't your NJ just copy whatever the previous NJ copied? So if it copied SoG you would copy a copy of NJ that's copying SoG?

Isn't that how Book of Jashur (or whatever that blue card that copies enhancements) works if it copies its self?
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: RedemptionAggie on April 03, 2019, 01:55:32 AM
Book of Jashar remains in play as whatever it copied. The first NJ copies SoG and is discarded, resetting to NJ.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Isildur on April 03, 2019, 02:45:49 AM
I've got to be honest... now I'm confused...

I think I might have misunderstood Gabes conga line post too haha :dunno:
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 03, 2019, 06:12:21 AM
Also, I dont understand why NJ wont stay in play if it copies 3W just because it isn't in battle, the imitate LS is a copy ability that doesn't touch battle and it stays on the field, how is this dfferent?
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: RedemptionAggie on April 03, 2019, 01:09:52 PM
Imitate says the copy lasts for one round, which overrides the default of until the card leaves FoB.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Watchman on April 05, 2019, 10:13:37 PM
Soon Cactus games will be able to offer a new tournament winner promo! The elder team has felt for some time that New Jerusalem (dominant) could use an update. We've tested this version and feel that accomplishes our goal of being under the power level of TSC while giving players that don't own TSC a good alternative.

Spoiler (hover to show)

What?! Where’s the 1-800 number for the Zeppelinesque Christian rock band New Jerusalem?!
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Watchman on April 06, 2019, 09:46:44 AM
Also, I dont understand why NJ wont stay in play if it copies 3W just because it isn't in battle, the imitate LS is a copy ability that doesn't touch battle and it stays on the field, how is this dfferent?

I agree.  The explanations given by the elder team don't really make sense to me, particularly after reading the REG entry about Copy.  I didn't read anything in there that would suggest that NJ couldn't copy a good 3W and remain in territory just like 3W.  Now if the REG was updated to read that any copy ability lasts until the end of the current phase then I can understand that.  But as it stands now I don't see how NJ couldn't remain in territory as an ongoing copy of good 3W.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Kor on April 06, 2019, 10:34:10 AM
I think it would at least be fun if NJ could copy Glory, 3 Woes, Holy Spirit and stick around to give you two of these in territory.  Don't think it would be too overpowering either as you are giving up a soul rescue to get this effect.  Maybe worth thinking about tweaking this rule?  ;D
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: jesse on April 06, 2019, 11:51:39 AM
+1
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 06, 2019, 01:49:51 PM
I also agree, copy should last until the card its copying leaves play
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: TheJaylor on April 08, 2019, 10:04:55 AM
I think it would at least be fun if NJ could copy Glory, 3 Woes, Holy Spirit and stick around to give you two of these in territory.  Don't think it would be too overpowering either as you are giving up a soul rescue to get this effect.  Maybe worth thinking about tweaking this rule?  ;D
Except for the fact that you would be able to shuffle NJ with Shrine to Artemis and then use it again to rescue a soul.

I also agree, copy should last until the card its copying leaves play
But in most cases the ability NJ is copying won't be in play so we wouldn't really be able to define it that way.

I agree that it doesn't make intuitive sense that a copied place ability doesn't stick, but if it's been decided that it's better for the game then that's probably what we should stick with.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 08, 2019, 10:25:22 AM
Copy could be defined to copy a card while it's in play.  NHS ability allows it to override the default and copy last played, so it would work to copy SoG, but if it copies 3W then the default would kick in and allow it to stay

I see no problem with NJ being shuffled and used again.  You wont be able to copy 3W again since it wasnt just played and you'll never be able to rescue 2 LS with it this way.  I see this as pretty cool to shuffle it and use it twice
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: The Guardian on April 08, 2019, 10:36:05 AM
Copy could be defined to copy a card while it's in play.  NHS ability allows it to override the default and copy last played, so it would work to copy SoG, but if it copies 3W then the default would kick in and allow it to stay

I see no problem with NJ being shuffled and used again.  You wont be able to copy 3W again since it wasnt just played and you'll never be able to rescue 2 LS with it this way.  I see this as pretty cool to shuffle it and use it twice

Except you could also shuffle Woes and get both back for later...then you could shuffle NJ again and copy Son of God on a future turn... ::)
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Gabe on April 08, 2019, 10:38:09 AM
Copy could be defined to copy a card while it's in play.  NHS ability allows it to override the default and copy last played, so it would work to copy SoG, but if it copies 3W then the default would kick in and allow it to stay

I see no problem with NJ being shuffled and used again.  You wont be able to copy 3W again since it wasnt just played and you'll never be able to rescue 2 LS with it this way.  I see this as pretty cool to shuffle it and use it twice

We designed and tested NJ with the current copy rules in mind. There are plenty of great targets for it to copy. If we wanted it to copy 3W we would have worded it to get around the default rather than redefine the game rules and retroactively change them. I'm pretty sure that both NJ and 3W are good enough without them interacting as some people desire.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 08, 2019, 10:48:13 AM
It just doesn't make sense that a card can only cop something while it's in battle, but the card never is in battle.  The default for copy needs to change to include cards that never enter battle.  It may technically work with current rules, but it's not intuitive at all, which all rules should strive to be

And I still see no problem with shuffling NJ, as it will take multiple turns to be able to play it again off your own 3W (1 turn to shuffle nj, then 1 to shuffle 3w, then you have to draw them both again and play them in the same turn) and shrine is easy to negate or discard, and this is all having to use shrine which doesn't see much play and NJ is still worse than TSC
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: The Guardian on April 08, 2019, 11:04:36 AM
In case anyone has the wrong impression, our goal was not to remake NJ to be on the same level as TSC. Our goals were to upgrade it from the old version, release it in a way that will give players easy access to it (once enough are in circulation) and give it a little something different that might be more strategic for certain decks.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Watchman on April 08, 2019, 11:05:04 AM
Copy could be defined to copy a card while it's in play.  NHS ability allows it to override the default and copy last played, so it would work to copy SoG, but if it copies 3W then the default would kick in and allow it to stay

I see no problem with NJ being shuffled and used again.  You wont be able to copy 3W again since it wasnt just played and you'll never be able to rescue 2 LS with it this way.  I see this as pretty cool to shuffle it and use it twice

We designed and tested NJ with the current copy rules in mind. There are plenty of great targets for it to copy. If we wanted it to copy 3W we would have worded it to get around the default rather than redefine the game rules and retroactively change them. I'm pretty sure that both NJ and 3W are good enough without them interacting as some people desire.

What exactly is the default, as defined in the current Copy rules?
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 08, 2019, 11:17:10 AM
No I understand, I just think copy abilities are confusing and am trying to understand/make them easier to understand.  I'm not necessarily trying to make NJ easier, just so that when a younger player gets NJ, which is basically who this card is meant for, they will be able to use it without having to have a PhD in redemptionese
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Watchman on April 08, 2019, 11:19:36 AM
No I understand, I just think copy abilities are confusing and am trying to understand/make them easier to understand.  I'm not necessarily trying to make NJ easier, just so that when a younger player gets NJ, which is basically who this card is meant for, they will be able to use it without having to have a PhD in redemptionese

My question was actually meant for Gabe. :)
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 08, 2019, 11:21:08 AM
And my statement was meant for the guardian  :)
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: goalieking87 on April 08, 2019, 11:28:30 AM
Copy could be defined to copy a card while it's in play.  NHS ability allows it to override the default and copy last played, so it would work to copy SoG, but if it copies 3W then the default would kick in and allow it to stay

I see no problem with NJ being shuffled and used again.  You wont be able to copy 3W again since it wasnt just played and you'll never be able to rescue 2 LS with it this way.  I see this as pretty cool to shuffle it and use it twice

Except you could also shuffle Woes and get both back for later...then you could shuffle NJ again and copy Son of God on a future turn... ::)

It seems like a slight tweak to the wording could solve this issue as well as the debate about copying. Personally, since sometimes rules are routinely updated, I think it makes sense to have the wording (especially on a dominant) less dependent on the definition of an ability that already is creating ambiguity.

Some potential suggestions in case this is a viable option:

1. Copy the last good Dominant played this phase. Discard this card.

2. Copy the last good Dominant (from a discard pile) played during this phase.

Just food for thought...
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Kor on April 08, 2019, 12:26:44 PM
I think it would at least be fun if NJ could copy Glory, 3 Woes, Holy Spirit and stick around to give you two of these in territory.  Don't think it would be too overpowering either as you are giving up a soul rescue to get this effect.  Maybe worth thinking about tweaking this rule?  ;D
Except for the fact that you would be able to shuffle NJ with Shrine to Artemis and then use it again to rescue a soul.


That's a fair point.  I still don't think it is stronger than TSC even with that interaction, but since Gabe says NJ was tested with the copy rules as they are I definitely respect not wanting to make any last minute changes to make a new dominant stronger.

Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: The Guardian on April 08, 2019, 12:30:51 PM
Quote
That's a fair point.  I still don't think it is stronger than TSC even with that interaction, but since Gabe says NJ was tested with the copy rules as they are I definitely respect not wanting to make any last minute changes to make a new dominant stronger.

I agree it still wouldn't be on the same level, but without testing it that way, it wouldn't be prudent to make such a change.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: jesse on April 08, 2019, 01:06:25 PM
I understand. I think we all just love NJ with all its history and the underdog "poor man's TSC" and so want it to be as good as possible  ;)
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Watchman on April 08, 2019, 01:16:07 PM
Quote
That's a fair point.  I still don't think it is stronger than TSC even with that interaction, but since Gabe says NJ was tested with the copy rules as they are I definitely respect not wanting to make any last minute changes to make a new dominant stronger.

I agree it still wouldn't be on the same level, but without testing it that way, it wouldn't be prudent to make such a change.

So to be clear, a copy ability lasts until the end of phase (not speaking about cards in the FoB)?  I want to address this issue if it comes up in a tournament.
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: jesse on April 12, 2019, 02:55:27 PM
Is there an estimate for when the new NJ tournament winner card will be available?
Title: Re: New Tournament Winner Promo (Coming Soon!)
Post by: Master Q on April 14, 2019, 06:04:57 PM
Although I feel like this 'new' NJ would be far better-suited for new (and desperately-needed) starters, it is a decent option and a good upgrade for those few people who still don't have TSC. It certainly has its merits in MP categories, where I think it actually might outclass TSC. That said, MP categories are hardly legitimate, so that hardly matters... :angel:

As for a winner promo, it's... not bad, but not my first choice. Looking at it more broadly, I think there needs to be about 3-5 (not already well-circulated) winner promos available at any given time in order to really make them more worthwhile. Or, seasonal winner promos, perhaps? Point being, there's so many different local/district/etc promos, and so few winner promos (and next to no exciting ones) that I don't understand the disparity.
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