Author Topic: Can We Make Teams Official?  (Read 7987 times)

Offline DaClock

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Can We Make Teams Official?
« on: June 28, 2009, 02:26:11 AM »
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I think that Redemption is long overdue for a Teams event. Playing with a partner is really fun. The teamwork aspect of teams is another cool aspect that isn't really present in the tournament scene today. I think a set of rules could be put together that allow players to use their T1 decks without modification so that anybody could play. That being said, here are the potential problems I see with Teams being officially sanctioned.

1. If it was included in RNRS, it would be difficult to keep track of individual players. It would also be difficult to play with the same partner all year, so ranking each team would be difficult as well.
2. Creating and enforcing table talk rules is very difficult, especially when two people are working together. I think that teammates would have to be allowed to either speak openly about the contents of their hand/facedown cards in order to decide who blocks.
3. Score to win/amount of dominants is also something to be considered. The 1 copy of each dominant per team, play to 5 format that we used last year worked well. Since this would be a new category, maybe it could be experimented with playing to 6 to make getting New Jerusalem less potent.
4. Splitting prizes between teammates would make it the least-lucrative category.
5. Team games require 4 people, this makes it more difficult to find the right amount of people than for a multi-player category. For example, what if you have 2 teams + 1 extra person that would like to play but doesn't have a partner?

Anyway, I'm posting this here to get your thoughts on the subject. I'd like to hear from people that have played Teams in the past. What did you like? What did you dislike?

I'd also like some input from Playtesters and/or Rob. What would it take to make Teams an official category? Would it have to replace a different category? Could it be like booster draft was the first year, optional instead of another category*?

*Booster draft replaced Sealed Deck Multi-Player. The first year it was available hosts had the option of choosing either SDMP or BD.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2009, 02:49:59 AM »
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I will only support this if we have T2 Teams as well...  ;)
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Ironica

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2009, 08:24:52 AM »
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I'vw never play teams so my opinion will just be in my mind :)

1. If it was included in RNRS, it would be difficult to keep track of individual players. It would also be difficult to play with the same partner all year, so ranking each team would be difficult as well.

I would suggest that you're team would get the same amount of RNRS and any multi-type game and then they are split in half between the two.  I think it would also help if, for teams, you combine the first and second RNRS points and then split them between the teammates (so those who actually care about RNRS point would still have a chance to gain a good amount of points instead of just half of first place).

2. Creating and enforcing table talk rules is very difficult, especially when two people are working together. I think that teammates would have to be allowed to either speak openly about the contents of their hand/facedown cards in order to decide who blocks.

You could always lean over and whisper to them (since you would be sitting next to them).

3. Score to win/amount of dominants is also something to be considered. The 1 copy of each dominant per team, play to 5 format that we used last year worked well. Since this would be a new category, maybe it could be experimented with playing to 6 to make getting New Jerusalem less potent.

I think it would be interesting to bump it up to six.

4. Splitting prizes between teammates would make it the least-lucrative category.

Again, you could combine the first and second place prizes and then split them up.

5. Team games require 4 people, this makes it more difficult to find the right amount of people than for a multi-player category. For example, what if you have 2 teams + 1 extra person that would like to play but doesn't have a partner?

Tiss a problem.

Another problem I can see is when to have the event during the district and up tournaments.  It is a good idea to have it optional for the first year but then if it becomes official and required to have, when would you have it?  Would you have to add a Friday night event to cover this (which wouldn't be kind to out of towners (unless you want to house them)).

Offline uthminister [BR]

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2009, 08:52:09 AM »
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Another problem I can see is when to have the event during the district and up tournaments.  It is a good idea to have it optional for the first year but then if it becomes official and required to have, when would you have it?  Would you have to add a Friday night event to cover this (which wouldn't be kind to out of towners (unless you want to house them)).

I was thinking about your post and I really believe that most of your concerns are easy to deal with. We make the prizes for teams double normal winnings. We tell people ahead of time that we will be having Teams so they can drum up a partner and practice/strategize with them. However your last concern is what worries me as a host. I think that for the tournament levels that require you to host all categories, maybe Cactus could make 6 categories required and the host is allowed to choose which 6 based on what categories are popular in their area...

Offline Bryon

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2009, 10:42:59 AM »
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Michael Wolfe and I were discussing this yesterday at SW Regionals.  Neither of us would be opposed to offering this as an option instead of multi-player next tournament year, similar to how we offered Booster Draft as an option instead of Sealed deck multiplayer as a trial for one year.  Teams split prizes, so that it doesn't cost Cactus any more this year.

Your last concern is also easily dealt with: players bring their own partners ahead of time, and you always offer another category as an option during teams in case their partner doesn't show or they can't find one.

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2009, 12:03:03 PM »
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Question: are Teams being played unofficially at this year's nats, and how closely do this year's rules map the ones Prof laid out last year?

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2009, 12:13:19 PM »
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Quote
3. Score to win/amount of dominants is also something to be considered. The 1 copy of each dominant per team, play to 5 format that we used last year worked well. Since this would be a new category, maybe it could be experimented with playing to 6 to make getting New Jerusalem less potent.

are multiple copies of the same card (besides dominants) allowed between both decks? for example, can both decks have an aoc promo, unholy writ, etc? if so, games should be played to 8 lost souls.
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Offline mjwolfe

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2009, 12:16:46 PM »
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I'm am overwhelming in support of making teams official. The team event at last year's Nationals was one of the most fun multiplayer events I've ever played. Teams improves many of the things that make Type-1 Multi some of people's least favorite. In teams you'd have less of one player getting picked on by all of the others at the table. You'd eliminate one player in a multi just giving lost souls to someone else at the table that they would rather see win. There is so much more strategy necessary to do well than to just have the fastest drawing speed deck.

As for some of Ben's other questions:
2. Creating and enforcing table talk rules is very difficult, especially when two people are working together. I think that teammates would have to be allowed to either speak openly about the contents of their hand/facedown cards in order to decide who blocks.

I think that the players in teams should be able to discuss their strategy and hands openly. The advantage they get from doing this is partially limited by the fact that the other team gets to hear what they're saying and gets some clues as to what they are up to. It was pretty silly in the Nationals teams event when you could discuss strategy only as long as you used some type of indirect code labguage "If you have a certain dominant that rhymes with barter than I'll let you take the block!"

3. Score to win/amount of dominants is also something to be considered. The 1 copy of each dominant per team, play to 5 format that we used last year worked well. Since this would be a new category, maybe it could be experimented with playing to 6 to make getting New Jerusalem less potent.

It would be better to stick with the game going to 5 Lost Souls, but New Jerusalem is not allowed in the event.

Teams has the potential to be a great official category.

Mike
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 12:18:53 PM by mjwolfe »

Offline mjwolfe

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2009, 12:20:44 PM »
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Question: are Teams being played unofficially at this year's nats, and how closely do this year's rules map the ones Prof laid out last year?

It looks like teams will be offered again this year at Nationals as one of the extra events and so far the rules are very similar to the rules that Prof Underwood used last year.

Mike

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2009, 03:22:26 PM »
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What do you plan to do for the extra events?  Based on pre-registration, are people going to be there during the day/evening on Wednesday that one could be held then?
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Offline mjwolfe

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2009, 03:51:51 PM »
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Most of the registered attendees have preferred that we hold the extra events on Thursday and/or Friday evenings. So we will not have the extra events on Wednesday. There should be more details available in about a week, but this should help people plan a little better.

Mike

Offline DaClock

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2009, 03:55:41 PM »
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MKC, last year the rules for doubles were as follows.

Each person can have a copy of any  card in their deck, similar to T1. However, dominants were only allowed to be played once per team. So both players on the team could have Son of God and New Jerusalem, but only one of them could play them. This made it so players had to make an objective decision on whether it was better to only have 1 copy per team or to have 2 copies and one player would end up with less-useful cards.

Playing to 5 worked well last year since essentially there was the same number of dominants as T1, but twice as many characters/enhancements.

Guardian, playing T2 teams could be fun as well but I've never tried it so I don't know how much better it would be than T2 MP.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2009, 04:05:35 PM »
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MKC, last year the rules for doubles were as follows.

Each person can have a copy of any  card in their deck, similar to T1. However, dominants were only allowed to be played once per team. So both players on the team could have Son of God and New Jerusalem, but only one of them could play them. This made it so players had to make an objective decision on whether it was better to only have 1 copy per team or to have 2 copies and one player would end up with less-useful cards.

Playing to 5 worked well last year since essentially there was the same number of dominants as T1, but twice as many characters/enhancements.

Guardian, playing T2 teams could be fun as well but I've never tried it so I don't know how much better it would be than T2 MP.

i just find it problematic that a team could be swept easily by the amount of instant offensive battle winners there are in the game, especially in duplicate. yes, an argument could be there is twice as much defense to work with as well, but its common knowledge that offensive cards have always been slightly more powerful than defensive ones. which is why i suggested rescue to 8...combine the total amount of lost souls needed for 2 players, minus 2 for sog/nj. 8 could be a bit long though, so perhaps 7 or 6 would be more adequate. i also think allowing only 1 copy of a card with a special ability per team would encourage more diverse and creative deck building. if this rule isnt implemented for t1, it should be for the t2 version. i know in the mtg two-headed dragon (2v2 teams) format, each team is only allowed to retain up to the cap of a particular card in both of their decks...which is 4. so, perhaps in redemption each team can only have say, 5 aoc promo's total between both of their decks. 10 total aoc promos could be pretty devestating... -_-
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2009, 04:28:35 PM »
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i just find it problematic that a team could be swept easily by the amount of instant offensive battle winners there are in the game, especially in duplicate. yes, an argument could be there is twice as much defense to work with as well, but its common knowledge that offensive cards have always been slightly more powerful than defensive ones.
The real problem, KChief, is that the team games (at least those at Nats 2008) were severely time constrained. I teamed with the Hobbit and he had an almost pure offense deck, while I played almost pure defense (the exceptions were duplicate battle winners we passed back and forth through Storehouse). Every game we played ended up as a time out with no side ever getting more than 3 (including the two from SoG/NJ). You either need to bump up the time to something similar to T2-MP length or see that the vast majority of team players bring pure speed decks in an effort to get to SoG/NJ first.

On the other hand, even with less than stellar results at playing, the teams event was exceptionally fun. Especially if you get matched up against Pol and Colin.

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2009, 04:42:44 PM »
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i kind of figured it would be a given that time was bumped up...i suppose not.
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Offline Captain Kirk

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2009, 09:11:35 PM »
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If we bumped it more than 5 Lost Souls more time would be needed.  Ben and I have never had a game timeout in two successful years as partners, but if we had to get to 6 or 7, we probably would have.

I do think this would be a great category to offer in place of T1 Multi.

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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2009, 09:48:10 PM »
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If we bumped it more than 5 Lost Souls more time would be needed.  Ben and I have never had a game timeout in two successful years as partners, but if we had to get to 6 or 7, we probably would have.

I do think this would be a great category to offer in place of T1 Multi.

Kirk

dont more people play t1 multi rather than t2 multi...?
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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2009, 09:51:44 PM »
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yeah they do

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2009, 10:13:08 PM »
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That is more determined by not as many players having collections to build t2 decks than anything else, in my experience.

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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2009, 10:57:24 PM »
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are multiple copies of the same card (besides dominants) allowed between both decks? for example, can both decks have an aoc promo, unholy writ, etc? if so, games should be played to 8 lost souls.
Initially, I thought that playing to a much higher number of LSs would be necessary as well (we originally played to 7).  However in playtesting, we discovered that it made games take forever.  In fact, even playing to 5 still caused some timeouts.  Having to get through 2 players defense and only having 1 SoG/NJ made it plenty difficult to make it to 5 :)

I'm glad that everyone else had such a positive experience with TEAMS last year, and that it will be held again this year.  I completely support making it an optional official category in future years as well.  I know that the people in my playgroup would choose to have it be part of a tournament if given that option, and I suspect that a lot of other people would as well.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2009, 11:20:04 PM »
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That is more determined by not as many players having collections to build t2 decks than anything else, in my experience.

Kirk

well, my point is shouldnt t2 multi be dropped in lieu of 2v2?
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2009, 11:47:47 PM »
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well, my point is shouldnt t2 multi be dropped in lieu of 2v2?
Only if you want to really tick off T2 players :)

However, if it could be an option for hosts to replace T2-mp with, then I think that people would be happy with that.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2009, 12:08:07 AM »
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well, my point is shouldnt t2 multi be dropped in lieu of 2v2?
Only if you want to really tick off T2 players :)

However, if it could be an option for hosts to replace T2-mp with, then I think that people would be happy with that.

well i gather you would tick off far more t1mp players. the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few :)
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2009, 12:15:11 AM »
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Or let the host see which 2 have the most interest and play those. In other words instead of play 6 of 7, play 2 of the 3 multi player open categories.
you could even toss booster into the mix, and say play 3 of the 4 multi categories.
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Offline Captain Kirk

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2009, 12:57:48 AM »
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In some playgroups T2 multi is way more popular.  So I would agree that the host should determine what is best for the playgroup.

Kirk
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Offline NWJosh

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2009, 01:07:58 AM »
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I would actually like to see a teams event replace closed deck.  That always seems to be the event that I have to convince people to play in at tournaments.  T2 multi usually is made up of more experienced players and taking away an event of the top players isn't good but T1 multi is big because even new players can get into that.  Booster draft is alot of players favorite event and although it does cost more its a ton of fun and most players would not want to lose that.
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Offline DaClock

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2009, 01:11:10 AM »
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Playing to more than 5 we would easily have time constraints. Last year we had to play real short rounds simply because it was late by the time the tournament got over and we wanted to be done before the next day started. I think Teams would require at least 1 hour per round to have a good amount of time.

Personally as a host I would replace Sealed Deck over any other category. However, for our local area it would make sense to replace T2 MP because we're lucky to have 3 T2 players.

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2009, 01:11:36 AM »
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I think the best option would be to say that a host could simply choose 6 of the 7 categories and let them pick whichever they felt like would generate the most interest in their playgroup.

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2009, 01:19:39 AM »
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Good call on replacing Sealed.  ;)

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Offline DaClock

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2009, 01:21:42 AM »
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I think the best option would be to say that a host could simply choose 6 of the 7 categories and let them pick whichever they felt like would generate the most interest in their playgroup.

I agree. Different hosts/playgroups have different preferences.

Offline Korunks

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2009, 08:15:09 AM »
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I have only Co-hosted one Tournament so far but feel I should weigh in as I plan on hosting several this season.  I think team is an interesting play style, but if it is mandated to replace either of the MP styles, I don't think it would go over well here.  I think IF it became official it should be optional for groups who don't play teams.
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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2009, 08:38:09 AM »
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Agreed... if it becomes official, they should create some stipulations.

Local tournaments already do not require all categories to be played, so that's not a big deal.
Districts usually only run a day, so maybe only requiring 6 categories at a district would be appropriate, allowing the host to decide what categories to switch out (maybe requiring the 2 player events and then allowing the host to choose 4 others from the 2 closed, 2 multi, and teams)
States and Regionals almost always run 2 days, so requiring teams to be a part of the mix is not a huge stretch.

Just my thoughts, as a host.

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2009, 10:01:30 AM »
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States and Regionals almost always run 2 days, so requiring teams to be a part of the mix is not a huge stretch.
Indeed, we will be running all 7 events at the East Central Regionals on July 11th.  We did all 7 last year at East Central Regionals as well, and it was a great success...

except that we were playing to 7 LSs and one game took about 5 hours to play.

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2009, 10:16:24 AM »
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States and Regionals almost always run 2 days, so requiring teams to be a part of the mix is not a huge stretch.
This year, the MN State tournament started at 5:00 pm on Friday and play ended at 11:35 pm. Saturday morning we started at 9:00 am, and I left the building at 10:30 pm. Adding another required event would be a slightly larger deal than suggested.

Heck, Nationals is spread over three days and teams get forced into a late night session.

This just means you either are going to officially run 6 of 7 events, or you run teams in parallel with two of the other events and end up cannabalizing players.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 10:37:11 AM by EmJayBee83 »

Offline Korunks

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2009, 10:30:54 AM »
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MD states ran in a day this weekend, adding a forced seventh event would be difficult to fit in a day.
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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2009, 10:48:29 AM »
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I choose the six current categories.  ;D

Considering we only had 3 people for 4 of my 6 events at my district in may. I see difficulty if offering teams over these event. Teams needs four while all other events only need 2 or 3.


The scoring system for points would also be difficult unless you have the same partner at each tournament.  Which would be easy for my wife and I to stick to but one of us may want to play the opposite event.

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2009, 03:32:47 PM »
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Why would it be hard? Just give both the players points for winning separately.

Offline New Raven BR

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2009, 03:34:02 PM »
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i'd be in for playing teams if only there was a suitable teammate for me on the forums :(
Your biggest competition is YOURSELF

Offline lightningninja

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2009, 04:10:11 PM »
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I'm in full support of this and have been trying to get this for years. I think it's an excellent game type, not only because it's fun, but it lets you get to strategize with other great players (aka picking up other good players at a tourney to play teams and preparing last minute), and because I think table talk is awesome! And now it's allowed!

And let's face it... everyone wants to see everybody using Babylonians, so that when you play head of gold, you can capture every hero on the table. XD

Also, I think we should make it a rule that you can play enhancements on your teamate's characters. That would be awesome!
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2009, 04:24:35 PM »
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Why would it be hard? Just give both the players points for winning separately.
I agree with this.  That way, it would be possible to see if someone was good enough to win with a variety of different teammates.

Also, I think we should make it a rule that you can play enhancements on your teamate's characters. That would be awesome!
This was done 2 years ago at Nats, but not last year (although you could pass enhs through Storehouse).  Personally, I enjoyed last year more, but I am probably biased :)

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2009, 05:09:52 PM »
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The thing about last year's rules, and I don't think Mark had the outside knowledge to be aware of this when he ironed out his rules, but the rules for Teams works very similar to the way Magic's Two-Headed Giant category would work if it were ported over to Redemption.  I think there's only like two significant rule differences, and I don't remember them off the top of my head.

This tells me that it's a good foundation on which to establish what could easily be a sanctioned category in future tournament seasons.

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Can We Make Teams Official?
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2009, 05:20:45 PM »
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I don't think Mark had the outside knowledge to be aware...
You calling me ignorant? :) Actually you are correct.  I've never played Magic, or even watched a game, so I can't really compare.  I actually based the rules somewhat off of a CCG that I created back in 1995 called Promise Land, but that I never went far enough to get published.  It had a TEAM version that was similar to what we did last year at Nats.

Just to give all credit where it's due, I had played a 2-player version of a CCG called Spellfire previous to creating my game.

 


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