Author Topic: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)  (Read 8003 times)

Offline TheJaylor

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #125 on: May 29, 2019, 01:54:08 AM »
+1
As someone who is not planning to play T1-2P and would love to give more people a reason to play T2-MP, if Justin does end up playing T1-2P and cuts, I don't wanna be the reason he doesn't go for the win.

Even before the tournament he has to decide if he wants to play T1 and risk cutting when we're planning to play Teams, which may make it so he doesn't play T1 even though he would like to for some weird reason.

Anyway, this isn't meant to be about us, I'm just using it as an example that can be applied generally. Then again, I don't know if anyone else out there is really putting enough effort into prepping for Teams to make not playing T1 worth it, but at least a few people have noted that they still want to play three categories regardless.
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Offline Josh

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #126 on: May 29, 2019, 08:05:30 AM »
+1
I don't know if anyone else out there is really putting enough effort into prepping for Teams to make not playing T1 worth it, but at least a few people have noted that they still want to play three categories regardless.

I am.  I voted for option 2 because I will be playing Teams no matter what.
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Offline Cnakeeyes

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #127 on: May 29, 2019, 09:16:18 AM »
0
I don't know if anyone else out there is really putting enough effort into prepping for Teams to make not playing T1 worth it, but at least a few people have noted that they still want to play three categories regardless.

I am.  I voted for option 2 because I will be playing Teams no matter what.
Whos your team mate

TheHobbit13

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #128 on: May 29, 2019, 10:27:24 AM »
-2
What if we play teams the night of Day 2 of T1 2P this year? And then in the future play TEAMS on Wednesday night?

So, our solution to not making the top T12P players play while exhausted is to make everyone (including many of those players) play a different format while exhausted?  ???

That is a ridiculous solution, I agree, so obviously you have straw manned my point or missed it all together. You ought to keep your snide comments to yourself next time and spend more time thinking about what other people mean first. This schedule allows Type 1-2 players the ability to play Type 1-2 at a much higher competitive level AND play TEAMS that's it. I hate to quote Hannah Montana here but "We can sleep when we are dead".

Offline Bobbert

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #129 on: May 29, 2019, 11:29:06 AM »
0
If I'm understanding your suggestion correctly, your amended schedule is this:

Friday: T12P and T2MP
Saturday (morning/early afternoon): T12P Top Cut, T1Multi, Sealed
Saturday (late afternoon/evening): Teams

I'm sure that some Teams players would be happy to sit out and watch Top Cut, but I would also assume that most won't, and would rather play one of the other events while waiting for Teams. While I'm all for Sealed getting more participation, this would lead to a late event, on the last day of the tournament, after many players had already participated in an event that day. Do you think everyone's going to play to their best under those circumstances?

If my comment brought offense, I apologize. Perhaps I should have phrased my concern more gently. That said, given Gabe's comment, I don't think everyone agrees with your Hannah Montana quote.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #130 on: May 29, 2019, 01:27:10 PM »
0
The only category I could ever envision being played at night would be T2 MP...because all of us who actually play it are crazy like that anyway... ::)

I'm sure John would be willing to judge as long as one player was using an ANB deck... :o

 8)
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #131 on: May 29, 2019, 01:33:22 PM »
0
The only category I could ever envision being played at night would be T2 MP...because all of us who actually play it are crazy like that anyway... ::)

I'm sure John would be willing to judge as long as one player was using an ANB deck... :o

 8)

I'm sure we can make that happen!   ;)

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #132 on: May 29, 2019, 01:35:47 PM »
0
The only category I could ever envision being played at night would be T2 MP...because all of us who actually play it are crazy like that anyway... ::)

I'm sure John would be willing to judge as long as one player was using an ANB deck... :o

 8)

Nope
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #133 on: May 29, 2019, 02:16:07 PM »
0
The only category I could ever envision being played at night would be T2 MP...because all of us who actually play it are crazy like that anyway... ::)

I'm sure John would be willing to judge as long as one player was using an ANB deck... :o

 8)

Nope, I'd rather play instead of judging.

FTFY  ;D
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #134 on: May 29, 2019, 03:43:45 PM »
0
The only category I could ever envision being played at night would be T2 MP...because all of us who actually play it are crazy like that anyway... ::)

I'm sure John would be willing to judge as long as one player was using an ANB deck... :o

 8)

Nope, I'd rather play instead of judging.

FTFY  ;D

Still nope
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Offline Gabe

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #135 on: May 29, 2019, 04:06:01 PM »
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John will have a mobile toddler and a newborn by Nationals. Sleep may never be at a higher premium for him.  o_O
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TheHobbit13

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #136 on: May 29, 2019, 04:33:35 PM »
0
The only category I could ever envision being played at night would be T2 MP...because all of us who actually play it are crazy like that anyway... ::)

I'm sure John would be willing to judge as long as one player was using an ANB deck... :o

 8)

In Boston they played t1 multi in the evening. Someone who had a stereotypical multiplayer deck got stuck with 3 other M.A.S.K players the first round ahahaha.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #137 on: June 05, 2019, 05:13:08 PM »
0
Is Type A being offered this year?
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #138 on: June 07, 2019, 03:24:33 PM »
0
Is Type A being offered this year?

I would assume this will always be offered if there are enough players for it, which is basically 3-4.  I have at least 2 players that qualify, and 2 that are only a year or two over the "12 year old cut off"

Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #139 on: June 12, 2019, 10:00:52 AM »
0
While the poll had a lot fewer people vote on it than I think we would have liked the typical one day top cut had more votes than all the others combined, so that is what we will go with.  Do people have a preference on how many people should be in the top cut?

Offline jbeers285

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #140 on: June 12, 2019, 10:15:16 AM »
0
 100+ players 16 top cut
40-99 players  8 top cut
32-40 players 6 with top 2 seeds getting a bye
31 or less 4 player top cut
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #141 on: June 12, 2019, 10:26:40 AM »
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My suggestion:

<40 -- Top Cut of 4

40-120 -- Top Cut of 8

>120 -- Top Cut of 16


That way most years will be Top Cut of 8 (which overall seems to have worked well), but would allow for some adjustment in years where we have a much lower or much higher turnout. (Incidentally, the record for T1 2P is 123 in 2005).

While I kind of like Josiah's idea for a bye, I think it's too narrow of a range. One thing that might be interesting to consider for future years is that if there is a player who is undefeated--with no ties or time out wins--going into Top Cut, we do a Top Cut of 7 with that person getting a bye in round 1.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #142 on: June 12, 2019, 01:49:52 PM »
0
100+ players 16 top cut
40-99 players  8 top cut
32-40 players 6 with top 2 seeds getting a bye
31 or less 4 player top cut

 +1

Ultimately this is a conversation for the top type 1 players only (or past veterans). What top cut format does John, Josiah, Gabe, Josh K, Jay, Kevin etc prefer? I am honored to be included in this public discussion, it speaks to the unique nature of this game. With that being said, I am always for more top cut over less. With type 1 not running concurrently with type 2 we will should have enough to do top 16!

@thread remember people have been very hurt in the past when they actually should have cut and did not. The smaller the cut the more you punish unique decks or reward meta decks.

Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #143 on: June 12, 2019, 02:40:29 PM »
0
I love that I've been allowed to do it.  Our leadership both all the way from Rob down has been super cool about all of this.  I know other games have leaders that want to make all of the decisions and not give anyone a choice.  While I have run everything by them before I ever put it in the public, there have been zero responses that tell me I HAD to do that, which is awesome!  So for those people who get frustrated because a ruling doesn't make sense, or they simply don't like it, know that we honestly do have leadership who listens and cares about people's thoughts and feelings.

Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #144 on: June 12, 2019, 02:49:57 PM »
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Double posting because it also makes me thankful for this community.  You guys have been really cool about things that come down the pipe even if you don't always like it or agree with it.  You guys are also super supportive of people you don't even necessarily know!  The fact that I have people that have bought from me and donated money to help people get into Nationals for free (outside of closed products) is probably something other games aren't willing to do.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #145 on: June 12, 2019, 03:15:23 PM »
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@thread remember people have been very hurt in the past when they actually should have cut and did not. The smaller the cut the more you punish unique decks or reward meta decks.

By "should have cut and did not" are you referring to people who missed out on Top Cut by LS differential?
That does make sense to me--for example, someone could narrowly lose their first two games, but then end up playing less challenging opponents for the final 5 games and produce a very high LS differential. Meanwhile, another player could win their first five games by more moderate scores, but then lose their final two games against top players also competing for Top Cut and end up with a LS differential that is not very high. The first person might then make Top Cut over the second person because of the LS differential even though the second person likely played a much more difficult line-up of players but still got just as many wins as the first player.

To that end, I'm not advocating for strength of schedule to be incorporated into the determination of who makes Top Cut, but perhaps something along the lines of golf tournaments (i.e. anyone with X number of points or higher makes Top Cut).  For example, last year John was in 8th place going into top cut and was .5 points ahead of 3 other players so cutting at 8 made sense. If there had been another player tied with John, then we could have kept the cut point the same, but John and that other player would have done a "play-in" game essentially to get down to a final 8.

In 2017, there were 10 players with 15 or more points after round 7 (plus 3 more people with 14 points) so the cut could have been 10 or 13 (had we done top cut).

In 2016, 2 players with 15 points made top cut and 3 did not. What we could have done was make 15 points the cut number (giving us initially 11 players in top cut) and then do a "bye round" of 6v11, 7v10 and 8v9 (with 1-5 getting a bye) to get down to the final 8.

In 2015, 5 players with 15 points made top cut and 2 did not (with 1 missing by a single LS). We could have done a top 10 cut, with 7v10 and 8v9 playing the "bye round" to get down to 8.

In 2014, 4 players with 15 points made it and 4 did not. Top 12 cut means top 4 get byes (which makes even more sense with 8 players at 15 and 4 with more than 15) and we end up with 8 players after the Top Cut "bye round."

In 2013 (first year of top cut), 8 players had 15 points or more (with 9th place only having 13) so a Top 8 cut worked with no one losing out on LS differential and no "bye round" needed.

EDIT* -- added numbers from 2013 and 2017.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 12:54:10 PM by The Guardian »
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #146 on: June 12, 2019, 04:37:18 PM »
0
Do people have a preference on how many people should be in the top cut?
All players move on into a round-robin top cut.

On second thought, that probably won't fit into the allotted time. :P

Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #147 on: June 13, 2019, 11:47:03 AM »
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Every example Justin used was awesome. Each example he stated logically what should have happened and the benefits of it. Why not quit doing this over and over and make the decision based on the number of potential participants for top cut. Odd number gives bye round, even everyone plays but that would exclude people who had the same amount of points but differential (sometimes based on opponents) could exclude them. So the actual decision would be done after the initial Swiss rounds based on scores to determine a fair number. Pretty much the same time frame, maybe a game more or less depending on total participation. Obviously there’s no reason to top cut 12 if only 30 people play t1.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #148 on: June 13, 2019, 12:27:05 PM »
+1
To clarify, the number of games in the "bye" round would be based on how many games were needed to leave 8 players for the second round.

If 15 people made the cut, 14 would play (giving 7 winners) and only the top player would get a bye. If 13 people made the cut, then 10 people would play (5 winners) and the top 3 would receive a bye.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: The 25th Redemption CCG National Tournament (01-03 Aug 2019, TN)
« Reply #149 on: June 13, 2019, 03:26:47 PM »
0
A more serious suggestion here...

I think Justin has it right. Just state up front that any player with 2 losses or fewer in Swiss (X-2) will make the cut. That lets every player know exactly what they need and no tie-breaker would needed.

There is a (less than ;)) 0% chance that you will have more than 16 players will meet this criteria, so one additional play-in round for the lowest-ranked players may be necessary.