Author Topic: You guys rock!  (Read 673 times)

Offline jbeers285

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You guys rock!
« on: April 25, 2019, 01:04:06 PM »
+9
Redemption has had its share of secret combos and weird worded rulings that very few people knew about until they got surprised by it at the National tournament.

This culture is dying and honestly Iím glad to see it go. Whatever your position on JD and the fiasco at nats a couple years ago.  The guy posted his deck list and his combo and then won nationals with that list. Josh P also ran a version of that deck to I believe a 2nd place or a 4th place finish?.

Recently Iíve seen Josh H. Post several powerful combos for teams, rescuing multiple souls in a single turn etc. in the last week Iíve seen Issac post an incredible find with Acts of Solomon and the way it plays. He couldíve snuck into nationals and abused everyone with that but instead he shared his knowledge with the community. I have a lot of respect for that. Issac has now also pointed out an interesting loophole with Failed Objective and  the like. While some of us knew this Issac went ahead and made it public knowledge.

Iíll be the first to admit when strife first came out and I ran the Kingís of Judah deck I didnít tell anyone else about strife because I wanted an advantage. I wish now that I wouldíve exposed it sooner.

I like seeing this culture shift that is happening and I commend all of those who have put out there tricks and awesome finds.

Keep up the good work guys!

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Offline thecoolguy

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2019, 01:19:32 PM »
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I love combo decks 😋😋😋
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2019, 02:13:46 PM »
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While I think there's definitely still a place in the game for combo decks, I agree it's better that combo decks or strategies based on weird wording/loopholes are brought into the open before major tournaments. However, part of being a great player is knowing what potential strategies you might face and then having a plan to counter those strategies.

Admittedly, I did use one such strategy a couple years ago with The Third Seal (a poorly worded card) at 2016 Nationals, but in my defense (at least partially...  ::) ), the wording of The Third Seal was brought up by Westy several years prior (in a post which I found after recognizing the "weird" wording myself), but no one really paid much attention to him...is that on me for not telling everyone I planned to play mono-Silver and four copies of The Third Seal? I'll let everyone decide for themselves.  ;)

I guess overall, I think there's a balance to be sought. Redemption's player-base is small enough that not every crazy strategy/combo is going to be discovered in the first year of a set's release. If back in 2015 John E had revealed the Arrest in Gethsemane combo publicly, would it really have changed much leading up to Nationals? (Does Josiah decide not to play mono-Silver??) Seems unlikely to me since the theory behind John's deck went much deeper than just Arrest.

Perhaps last year is an even better example (gee, why does this always involve John?  ;D)

While I would have preferred the specific Jehu/Asahel interaction be made more widely known prior to Nationals, the overall deck theory of #Mayhem -- using very few cards that stayed in hand in order to gain an early card advantage by using Mayhem -- was brilliant IMO and certainly not something that John should have been expected to tell everyone about. I believe players that put the time and effort into researching, theorizing, testing and refining strategies should reap the benefit of having an edge when the major tournament season arrives.

If anyone disagrees, that's totally fine -- that's simply my perspective.  8)
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Online Bobbert

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2019, 03:01:04 PM »
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I mean, there's a difference between saying "Hey, I found a combo based on old wording that makes this old card useful/seems like an unhealthy interaction" and announcing the strategy of a deck you're planning to run.
Heck, even when I posted my T2 Only decklist after the tournament I didn't draw much attention to one particular (fairly simple) combo that I used in almost every game, since it caught nearly everyone off guard. Anyone I played (or someone willing to do some detective work on my board history) will likely know what it is, but since surprising people with it helped so much I figured I'd rather keep it quiet (although now I'm sure it'll come to light  ::) ). I don't think there's much of an issue with not announcing something like that to the world. Similar with Arrest, #Mayhem, and the like - while, like you said, Jehu/Asahel could have been better publicized, I don't think John needed to - or should have - declared his strategy from the rooftops.

I guess if a combo would require calling a judge to get a ruling on an older card, or looking up an obscure rule or errata every time you pull it on a new person, maybe you should publicize it.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2019, 03:29:09 PM »
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I guess if a combo would require calling a judge to get a ruling on an older card, or looking up an obscure rule or errata every time you pull it on a new person, maybe you should publicize it.

That's a pretty solid rule to go by.  :thumbup:
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Offline Josh

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2019, 03:33:16 PM »
+2
I used to try and find combos and keep them quiet for the surprise factor.  I've discovered that, with such a small player base that is fairly close-knit, I enjoy the game more and have more fun with other players when we celebrate new knowledge, as opposed to hoarding knowledge.





In my zeal to do so, I'll occasionally make posts about cards that have an Errata fixing the loophole I'm trying to break, like Primary Objective, but hey, it happens  ;)
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Offline Sean

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2019, 04:17:15 PM »
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What does Jehu/Asahel do?
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2019, 04:27:08 PM »
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Asahel:

Spoiler (hover to show)

Jehu:

Spoiler (hover to show)

Because Jehu is worded as a Cost-Benefit, the ability of the Hero that he exchanges with has to complete before the discard can occur.

It's one of the few situations in which a Choose the Blocker ability can activate before something else.

If the character that Asahel choses is an Evil Royal, then he gets discard after his ability activates. It's a very strong, though not unstoppable combo that results in fairly easy souls. It was one of many "Cheese" rescues that #Mayhem employed to deny the opponent opportunities to interact during the battle phase.
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Offline Sean

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2019, 04:37:00 PM »
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Interesting, that requires opponent to have an evil royal human to choose now that you have to choose the blocker from opponent's territory.  Does nobody use Wall of Protection anymore?
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2019, 04:38:49 PM »
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Interesting, that requires opponent to have an evil royal human to choose now that you have to choose the blocker from opponent's territory.  Does nobody use Wall of Protection anymore?

Nope,

Nobody uses Wall of Protection. Nebuchadnezzar was exceedingly popular last year, and having Hezekiah's Signet Ring up neuters his response to being picked. I was also running Falling Away (CoW) which could be used to set up a discard.
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Offline Sean

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2019, 04:46:01 PM »
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It is so interesting how certain cards that were rarely used 10 years ago (HSR) are now near staples in all decks and vice versa (Wall).
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2019, 04:50:38 PM »
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It is so interesting how certain cards that were rarely used 10 years ago (HSR) are now near staples in all decks and vice versa (Wall).

HSR was thrust back into the meta when The Second Coming was introduced with the Cloud of Witnesses set. I haven't seen it as much recently (likely because it cannot be activated anywhere other than the Artifact pile and that spot is so crucial), and these days you're just as likely to see a splash Jonah as a HSR, but it definitely still impacts games. Especially when a player gets it early before the opponent gets very set up.
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Offline GreatGray

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2019, 04:58:24 PM »
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Heck, even when I posted my T2 Only decklist after the tournament I didn't draw much attention to one particular (fairly simple) combo that I used in almost every game, since it caught nearly everyone off guard. Anyone I played (or someone willing to do some detective work on my board history) will likely know what it is, but since surprising people with it helped so much I figured I'd rather keep it quiet (although now I'm sure it'll come to light  ::) ).

Do you mean Protection of Jerusalem and GWT? That was just nasty.

Offline TheHobbit

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2019, 05:02:20 PM »
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You guys/girls rock. *sigh* some of us no longer rock.
This is Harley a post worth reading.

Online Bobbert

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2019, 05:02:50 PM »
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Heck, even when I posted my T2 Only decklist after the tournament I didn't draw much attention to one particular (fairly simple) combo that I used in almost every game, since it caught nearly everyone off guard. Anyone I played (or someone willing to do some detective work on my board history) will likely know what it is, but since surprising people with it helped so much I figured I'd rather keep it quiet (although now I'm sure it'll come to light  ::) ).

Do you mean Protection of Jerusalem and GWT? That was just nasty.

Yup, that's the one. Being able to negate and discard an evil card whenever you want is preeeety good, and since GWT is a solid card anyway nobody blinks when you flip it up.
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Offline Sean

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2019, 05:19:54 PM »
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Speaking of Jonah, I'm pretty sure I'm going to add him and Great Fish to my Daniel deck.  They can both start in reserve and I can get Jonah out with Covenant Breakers LS/The Coming Prophet and then put Great Fish into deck with Jonah's star.  Combining that with Foretelling Angel quickly getting my deck "drawn" out makes it that much easier to use Great Fish as a recurring auto block (assuming not negated) while also allowing Alex the Great to maintain unity.  And if that's not needed I can use it to win a rescue.  Great Fish is super versatile!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 05:22:25 PM by Sean »
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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2019, 10:49:07 PM »
+1
You guys/girls rock. *sigh* some of us no longer rock.
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2019, 11:02:45 PM »
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As much as I appreciate the shout out, I am still a selfish person at heart. :P there's a couple combos I'm keeping in my back pocket, although I'm not going to run them because they are incredibly unfun to play against. I don't want stupid lock down decks to rule the meta and make people have a bad time while playing redemption. I will keep making posts about fun combos I find especially with older cards, because there is nothing more fun than finding stupid combos that make old cards playable.
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Offline thecoolguy

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2019, 08:54:37 AM »
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Yeah same. I posted my Palestine deck because T2 only was coming up and I thought it wasnít the greatest combo.  ;)  I usually keep quiet about combos till after nationals

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Offline GreatGray

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2019, 10:44:01 AM »
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Honestly, some of these combos that people are finding are just scary. Decimating opponents' territories each turn, their hands, and whatever else is alarming. It is clear I don't have the mind for that kind of thing. I guess I'll have to be the guy Isaac, and lock each game up while throwing the key away. Now to figure out how...

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2019, 10:47:27 AM »
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I used to try and find combos and keep them quiet for the surprise factor.  I've discovered that, with such a small player base that is fairly close-knit, I enjoy the game more and have more fun with other players when we celebrate new knowledge, as opposed to hoarding knowledge.

This is what I discovered as well. When JD first posted his version of my CoL list I wasn't happy since I had intended to ninja Nats with it and thought surprise would be my only shot at doing well but it was only because of him spilling the beans that I decided to test my list at Regionals and it was there that I got the idea of running Hypocrisy from John and that card ended up being one of the single most important pieces of the deck. I also hadn't shared any of the decks newer iterations with JD after he leaked my first one but the night before T1 at Nats I showed him my final list and we did some practice for the mirror match (which unfortunately never happened). I think it's very likely that if I had gotten my original wish and the whole thing had been a secret right up until Nats then no one's CoL deck would have placed at all.

Not only is sharing knowledge more fun, it's often in the best interest of the strategy's discoverer as well.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 10:50:51 AM by Kevinthedude »

Offline goalieking87

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2019, 01:20:19 PM »
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I used to try and find combos and keep them quiet for the surprise factor.  I've discovered that, with such a small player base that is fairly close-knit, I enjoy the game more and have more fun with other players when we celebrate new knowledge, as opposed to hoarding knowledge.

This is what I discovered as well. When JD first posted his version of my CoL list I wasn't happy since I had intended to ninja Nats with it and thought surprise would be my only shot at doing well but it was only because of him spilling the beans that I decided to test my list at Regionals and it was there that I got the idea of running Hypocrisy from John and that card ended up being one of the single most important pieces of the deck. I also hadn't shared any of the decks newer iterations with JD after he leaked my first one but the night before T1 at Nats I showed him my final list and we did some practice for the mirror match (which unfortunately never happened). I think it's very likely that if I had gotten my original wish and the whole thing had been a secret right up until Nats then no one's CoL deck would have placed at all.

Not only is sharing knowledge more fun, it's often in the best interest of the strategy's discoverer as well.

Yeah about that...

Not necessarily you or JD, but I did notice some people were making misplays with that because Belt of Truth protects from crimson.

I do agree that over all sharing knowledge makes the game more competitive and do enjoy seeing things I would otherwise not have necessarily seen.

Gives incentives to be on the boards and Land of Redemption too!

Offline thecoolguy

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2019, 01:26:11 PM »
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Yeah I had first come up with the Joseph and Zebulun deck combo thing then someone posted on the boards about a Joseph and Zebulun deck I was like ....crap.... 😆 I feel ya my man 😆
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Offline TheHobbit

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2019, 01:26:33 PM »
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Yeah about that...

Not necessarily you or JD, but I did notice some people were making misplays with that because Belt of Truth protects from crimson.

I do agree that over all sharing knowledge makes the game more competitive and do enjoy seeing things I would otherwise not have necessarily seen.

Gives incentives to be on the boards and Land of Redemption too!

I am hoping the misplays will be cleaned up well this year by the phase I and phase II release. I suspect people were misplaying a lot last year  due, in part, to lack of practice.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2019, 02:21:48 PM »
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I used to try and find combos and keep them quiet for the surprise factor.  I've discovered that, with such a small player base that is fairly close-knit, I enjoy the game more and have more fun with other players when we celebrate new knowledge, as opposed to hoarding knowledge.

This is what I discovered as well. When JD first posted his version of my CoL list I wasn't happy since I had intended to ninja Nats with it and thought surprise would be my only shot at doing well but it was only because of him spilling the beans that I decided to test my list at Regionals and it was there that I got the idea of running Hypocrisy from John and that card ended up being one of the single most important pieces of the deck. I also hadn't shared any of the decks newer iterations with JD after he leaked my first one but the night before T1 at Nats I showed him my final list and we did some practice for the mirror match (which unfortunately never happened). I think it's very likely that if I had gotten my original wish and the whole thing had been a secret right up until Nats then no one's CoL deck would have placed at all.

Not only is sharing knowledge more fun, it's often in the best interest of the strategy's discoverer as well.

Yeah about that...

Not necessarily you or JD, but I did notice some people were making misplays with that because Belt of Truth protects from crimson.

Yeah that was pretty much the number one way to tell if someone was experienced with the deck or not. There were many testing games where Belt was the last placed enhancement in my hand and I had to risk playing it pre-hypocrisy to keep the chain going.

Offline Master Q

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2019, 01:03:21 PM »
+4
Recently Iíve seen Josh H. Post several powerful combos for teams

AKA, why teams is busted and makes no sense. ;)

I will say that my feelings last year were that #Mayhem shouldn't have even happened at all (this new Mayhem should've been avoided during FoM testing when it was errata'd again; Jehu+Asahel could've been avoidable; etc). Yet it was allowed to pass testing, and now a new rule people have to remember (CTB can only choose opponent's EC) is in place. Now, I think this is a great rule for reducing NPE, but it really should've been implemented beforehand. And that's basically the history of rulings. Strong combos that leave little interaction or require prior knowledge or perfect (and nothing short of that) counterplay are allowed to profit until they're nerfed the year after- Confusion & Liners in 2016 by the introduction of Covenant of Prayer and the Liner ban, CoL in 2017 by the errata, and #Mayhem in 2018 by the change to CTB.

I disagree strongly with this practice, but I do think the game is progressing in a good direction overall. And, as someone who spends very little time looking at cards to specifically try to find game-busting combos (or even in general), I do appreciate very much those that are open about it. I don't really feel like this was a problem in years past (outside of weird T2 decks), and have no problem with people wanting to keep decks secret. But with so many cards still in the pool and so many new cards doing so much, those combo possibilities are now more than ever, and so the chance of combos like these slipping through the cracks are greater as a result.

I'd applaud but these 'secrets' are not really secrets after the first game they're used in. They really only remain secrets until Nats because of how small the playerbase is and how few people actually spoil strong combos that they see played against them. In that sense, our players are quite honorable. :angel:
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Offline GreatGray

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2019, 02:15:34 PM »
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I'm not super sure if this is relevant to this thread, but with the new KoT (PoC) Canaanites can be a solid offensive strategy if you are willing to sacrifice your defense. Both versions of Covenant with Adam are super for CtB, but now since cards like provisions can't just drag your own characters into battle that combo is much harder. Elijah's CtB ability, and CBP nature, can easily combine to send a canaanite over to the opponent's territory, choose it, and Covenant of Adam it. With all Canaanites being human (save KoT) the old one is much more viable for this strategy.
It is just a strong combo that requires removing all CoA counters to execute and get free rescues with Elijah and whoever else.

Offline TheHobbit

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2019, 02:37:31 PM »
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Recently Iíve seen Josh H. Post several powerful combos for teams

AKA, why teams is busted and makes no sense. ;)

I will say that my feelings last year were that #Mayhem shouldn't have even happened at all (this new Mayhem should've been avoided during FoM testing when it was errata'd again; Jehu+Asahel could've been avoidable; etc). Yet it was allowed to pass testing, and now a new rule people have to remember (CTB can only choose opponent's EC) is in place. Now, I think this is a great rule for reducing NPE, but it really should've been implemented beforehand. And that's basically the history of rulings. Strong combos that leave little interaction or require prior knowledge or perfect (and nothing short of that) counterplay are allowed to profit until they're nerfed the year after- Confusion & Liners in 2016 by the introduction of Covenant of Prayer and the Liner ban, CoL in 2017 by the errata, and #Mayhem in 2018 by the change to CTB.



Yeah, if you make some cool combos to work with the decks you like to play, at least have the decency to make them more public.
This is Harley a post worth reading.

Offline Reth

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2019, 07:26:50 PM »
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Did not read 2nd page of thread yet and honestly I did not dig much into abbreviation glossary or similar - but what stands GWT for in the mentioned "Protection of Jerusalem and GWT" combo?
The Great White Throne I already ruled out since it is an artifact - but could not find a fortress matching the GWT abbreviation? TBH: Lots of the abbreviations used are still confusing me ...

Online RedemptionAggie

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2019, 07:39:22 PM »
+3
GWT is The Great White Throne. The second part of the ability ("At any time,...") allows you to discard a card in territory basically whenever you want. If you're playing Assyrians, that allows you to trigger Protection of Jerusalem basically at will.

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2019, 08:43:28 PM »
+1
GWT is The Great White Throne. The second part of the ability ("At any time,...") allows you to discard a card in territory basically whenever you want. If you're playing Assyrians, that allows you to trigger Protection of Jerusalem basically at will.

As the person in question, I can confirm this. Using your own evil characters as territory control and battlewinners is pretty nice, especially when your main attack hero has trouble getting initiative.
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Offline Reth

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Re: You guys rock!
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2019, 01:11:56 PM »
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Thanks guys for the explanation!