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How do we grow a game built for fun, fellowship, and healthy competition when it will cost you over $300 for the first 14 cards in your deck?

*If you are looking for the condensed “twitter” version please jump strait to the “Conclusion”.

Such a Great Game: Coming back into the game after a long hiatus and attending nationals I saw that the game is at the strongest point I’ve ever seen. The numbers are down, (anyone remember Minnesota Nationals 2005?), but there are more possibilities for fun and success than ever before. Offense: you can run Throne, BOM, Flood survivors, angels, Judges, priests (Z-Temple and Solomon’s Temple), or some type of hybrid. Defense: you can run Babylonians, philistines, animals, demons, Assyrians, Syrians, Greeks, Egyptians, Canaanites, Hand-control, Lost Soul manipulation etc. The game is fun and the type of decks that one can build and be competitive with is endless.

One Expensive Problem: The current Redemption economy is out of balance. I see Redemption as a hobby, and it is quickly becoming an expensive one at that. The gap between being a Great player and a national champion really comes down to a little bit of luck, familiarity with cards, and most importantly one’s ability to make as few as mistakes as possible. But the difference between a good player and a Great player is often the money one has available.

Part .1/4

My Issue:  I used the prices from Three Lions Gaming to price out what it would cost to put together the Lost Souls and Dominants from the top three decks: 1st Place: $301.75,
2nd place: $342.75, 3rd Place: 283.75. Also Remember what Gabe (1st place winner) said, “I registered three copies of my deck so that I could rip some Haman’s Plots.” (Land of Redemption, Nationals Report Part 3: The BOM Deck). This would bring the total for Gabe to $905.25 for JUST 42 of the 153 total cards in his three combined decks!

How Do we fix this?: In the past Redemption has fixed this issue through a multiplicity of ways: 1) Re-releasing the “expensive” cards as winner promos (Harvest Time, King David, Chariots of Fire); 2) Rereleasing cards in new expansions (KOT Priests, Prince of This World), 3) flooding the market i.e. putting ultra-rares from past sets in the card boxes of the new sets (GOYS, Emperor Nero, DON, Unholy Writ, etc.). But what do we do when we have a single card selling for $140.00? I really don’t know. I do NOT think the answer is limiting someone to a single deck. I personally have nothing against what Gabe did. I actually think it was a great idea, and it shows how the current meta is a nice smoothie blend of the old and new cards.
*I had to say smoothie. I’m a Baptist and the cocktail analogy would have been a little much.

Conclusion: The game has evolved into something spectacular. I have always loved the game, but playing at nationals made it evident that it is the best it has ever been. The number of battles I was involved in at Nationals that did not involve dominants was amazing, The use of interrupts made battles exciting again thanks to Coliseum (you rock Pol!), the innumerable strategies I faced, the reemergence of old cards such as “Hezekiah’s Signet Ring”, “Haman’s Plot”, and the fear of “the Serpent and Confusion”, the battles lost after playing “Christian Martyr” because they had “You will Remain”, The domination of Moses, and yet the easy counters to Moses of Jericho and the Punisher. It is an amazing game that has only gotten better with time, you know like a fine…smoothie.
We have been gifted with the most game-changing set release since Warriors. Don’t believe me? Twenty of Gabe’s fifty-one cards were from the new COW set! “Coliseum”, “Confusion”, “Moses”, the new lost souls, and, you guessed it, “The Second Coming” drastically changed the game for the better. The result is more battles, more fun, and more variety. But Prices of cards continue to rise so high that I am afraid it has become a turn off for new players.
The game is at its greatest point, but the numbers suggest that it is not as successful as it once was, once again I point you to Minnesota Nationals 2005, and the 252 people in attendance! (Covenant Games.com/nationals/2005nationals.htm). The product is not the problem, the game is great. But how do we grow a game built for fun, Godly fellowship, and healthy competition when it will cost you over $300 for the first 14 cards in your deck? You simply cannot.

Pt.3/4

I believe JD was running Enternal Inheritance which brings his total a little higher.

Alright, you heard it here first folks, in the next set, we need to put in lots of TSC to drop the price! No but on a serious note, i feel your pain. A lot of the younger kids in our play group are having this problem. none of them can have competitive decks because of this large price. Gabe is nice enough to have cheap boosters, and have a free box with really good cards, but none of them can really get into the game because of this. I know i've spent months saving up money and spend a lot of it on cards like mayhem and COW boxes, and not even get the cards i want from them. I understand why the cards are going up in price, but i don't entirely like where it's going either. Although, i feel like most of these prices will likely drop down to something more reasonable by next year at the soonest, or next summer at the latest.

I appreciate this thread and the perspective shared. I have to admit that I have been surprised where the supply and demand has taken the value of certain cards. A vast majority of cards are not experiencing the increases that the cards you mentioned are. I could simply do away with the post Nationals price increase next year I suppose. My thought process has been that if a card is used in a couple top decks, then the price should not move. However, if a card is in every top deck, it should go up in value. The irony is that there will be three leveling factors that will be in play in the next year. First, the meta will shift in response to what cards are currently popular and so cards that went up this time may have topped out and begin coming down. Second, the next set should see a reprint of some of the highest value cards to move the supply in a more positive direction. Finally, I adjust prices down twice a year which will be happening in the near future (will only affect cards that have not been selling in the last six months which will be a lot).

One other thing to remember is that your example of previously expensive cards (KoT specifically) has gone down dramatically. When cards are new and popular, they will be more difficult to acquire. At this point, packs should be selling like hot cakes. The more packs the Redemption community buys, the more Rob prints using the on demand print service. The more Rob prints, the more supply goes up and the demand goes down. Solution: Buy more packs!

I really don't see a problem with the current Redemption economy. You don't necessarily need TSC and Shipwreck to have competitive deck as good as they are. If I recall correctly, Chris Egley made top cut this past Nats with NJ instead of TSC. Obviously, a certain number of high-end cards are absolutely needed to be competitive but they have never been easier to acquire than they now are, IMO. And Redemption is still much cheaper compared to most other CCGs.

And Redemption is still much cheaper compared to most other CCGs.

They also have a larger player base, which changes factors entirely.

I really don't see a problem with the current Redemption economy. You don't necessarily need TSC and Shipwreck to have competitive deck as good as they are. If I recall correctly, Chris Egley made top cut this past Nats with NJ instead of TSC. Obviously, a certain number high-end cards are absolutely needed to be competitive but they have never been easier to acquire than they now are, IMO. And Redemption is still much cheaper compared to most other CCGs.

1) It is definitely possible. Pol also made it into top cut and was a NJ away from beating Gabe without using The Second Coming in his deck. It definitely is possible to be competitive without TSC and Shipwreck, but it doesn't change the fact that those two cards alone put you over $200 into the hole.

2) I believe if I remember correctly statistically you have to buy 3 boxes of COW to secure yourself a "The Second Coming". I would not say that is, "easy to acquire."

3) many other CCG have high cash value prizes...excluding the boarderless cards that were handed out to players this year, the prizes are not the reason anyone wants to win.

Still I understand what you are saying, but I think the point is still the same.

Edit for Guardian: I am not so much worried about one card, except for the fact that the price of that card is setting a precedent against which the next great card will be valued. I am not very comfortable with the idea that there is a $140 card, and that is coming from someone who has one and has seen my investment triple.

As a whole newer cards cost more. It just so happens that the newest set CoW was game changing. Drastically. Now the core of the set is believe to be adequately priced based on usage demand etc. The problem is when it comes to Dominants and Souls. When you look at cards that tend to hold high value it is those. Simply put you are limited in good options for those 2 and they are necessary for competitivery play. So particularly new, powerful, versatile options for dominants and souls will be highly sought after and priced. One can say that over time as demand dies down the prices will decrease and that is true but players newer to the game particularly younger players often can't afford to get the best cards. I know personally when I was first starting it took me a couple years to aquire lost souls and Dominants that were good. As for a solution I would say something like how MTG has from the vault sets be done for the most used or overcosted cards. The sets could reprint cards to lower cost also circulate older cards that may be less played now as a special release and in addition to all of that if the price point for them is right it can force the cost of the cards down that are seeing high inflation (e.g. second coming). Consider it something like a core set pack or something. Even if it is made to where you aren't guaranteed a certain card but you are guaranteed one of a selection of expensive card along with other lower costed universally useful cards  (maybe with foil/alternate art or something for thing like souls and doms) it would sell well as well as expand the reach of the game by lowering the overall costs of cards. Those are just ideas though.

Totally agree with Jesse's points.

It's important to remember that many, many people were using the high-end cards and didn't make top cut. A couple people (Chris E. and Daniel H.) weren't using TSC and still made Top Cut. While certain Lost Souls are definitely stronger than others, they have far less to do with the outcome of the game than the in-game decisions made by each player.

If you were a brand new player and wanted a Nationals-competitive deck right away, you are certainly going to need to spend several hundred dollars all at once, and that is perfectly fine for a CCG that has been as successful as Redemption. 

I think that this is a really important discussion for all the redemption community to have.

The one thing that is bad for the prices is that it makes it harder as a newer player to come into the game and enjoy it fully and become really competitive.


And i know i don't have 300 to drop at once but thats a side note....

I'm more worried about price discrepancy than high prices. The only cards that are close to it in price are cards that have been out for a lot longer so honestly there is nothing I would trade you for a TSC right now its just not worth anything else beside alt art cards.

Even when TSC and Shipwreck were both $80, I would have not traded a TSC for a shipwreck straight up, I would have defiantly wanted more.

speaking of Gabe, he is one of the best redemption players of all time plus he is a play tester.. do you think he just spent 1000 dollars on his decks for nats?? no way!! and i didn't decide to drop 300 all at once on my top 3 deck either.. i built it over time and it came to shape through trading, playing booster draft, and doing what i could over time to win state, regionals, and place at nats!

i encourage redemption players to think creatively with the cards you have. don't feel like you have to net deck to win.. the greatest creative aspects of your personality and strategies come out in unique deck forms which are a wonderful aspect of this game.

I definitely did not think Gabe spent $900 at once to build his decks lol He seemed a fitting example because he won, and because he used "The Second Coming" and many of the other cards I mentioned in his decks.

I do appreciate your thoughts on the creative aspect, and the idea that it is a process. I guess for those who are coming into the game it would be good for them to go through the fire and take their time building a wining deck. I can appreciate that struggle, and it makes sense that if parents will pay for video games/board games/card games they will pay for Redemption as well. But I'm sure you have been in a playgroup that has 2-3 competitive players and a bunch of other players who don't have a real chance at winning any of their games. It makes it less fun for everyone. Still I understand where you are coming from, and it does make sense. Thanks for your input.

My point of this rant I guess... is that you aren't exactly correct when you say it costs $300 for the first 14 cards in your deck, that's a bit of a click bait title What your real concern is is that there are currently two cards which are in many top decks which cost $220 together. Honestly the rest of the cards you have listed are very reasonably priced and if you're looking to get into a game where $20 for a top tier card doesn't seem expensive you should check out a LCG instead of a CCG.

I appreciate your opinion (though I think we have different definitions of clickbait) and I definitely remember those days well, (I traded a kidney for Faithful Servant) and I built my sister a Type 2 deck with 4-5 AOC Promos during those days. It certainly was a struggle! You brought up a good point akin to what JD said, many different games come with a cost associated to them, and Redemption is the same. I understand that, and it makes sense. I guess if parents are willing to shell out crazy money for video games/board games/card games Redemption should not be much different. Especially understanding that Redemption is a CCG. Thanks for the input!

I can see both sides to the story, but I do think it is something that needs to be carefully watched, and that there was/is a need for these types of discussions.

It's not really reasonable for new players to expect to be Nationals contenders right away. The amount of time it takes to get great at the game is similar to the amount of time it takes to acquire a solid collection and all the big-ticket cards through normal purchasing and winning of packs and trading. And if you're almost there and just lacking a TSC, just play Genesis where NJ is preferable anyway.