Author Topic: The Watchman SA Vote - Player Created Card Part IX (Read 4444 times)

Gabe · « **on:** November 17, 2016, 04:43:18 PM »

The ability we chose for The Watchman is longer the amount of space we have for the SA on a printed card. We're going to hold a second vote of abilities that fit within the space we're given for special ability text.

Please submit your vote for one of the special abilities listed above. ~~Voting will run through ~~Wednesday, November 23rd~~. With the boards being down for a few days I've extended voting through Friday the 25th.~~

Let's assume for purposes of these special abilities that "banish" is equal to "remove from the game".

***EDIT***

Due to the discussion below I've added another ability and reset the voting. Voting will run until December 1st.

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** November 20, 2016, 09:46:11 PM »

Voting is live!

Gabe · « **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2016, 11:23:25 AM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on November 20, 2016, 10:36:47 PM

Banish...

Quote from: Gabe on November 17, 2016, 04:43:18 PM

Let's assume for purposes of these special abilities that "banish" is equal to "remove from the game".

Master Q · « **Reply #3 on:** November 22, 2016, 02:31:48 PM »

Darn, and I just thought of this:

“Negate evil search and shuffle abilities. You may exchange this Hero with an O.T. green prophet whose name is a biblical book in deck, territory, or discard pile: If it’s Ezekiel, reveal a hand.”

This covers most everything while keeping the ability within length.

I'll vote option 5 for now.

Gabe · « **Reply #4 on:** November 22, 2016, 02:41:03 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on November 22, 2016, 02:31:48 PM

Darn, and I just thought of this:

“Negate evil search and shuffle abilities. You may exchange this Hero with an O.T. green prophet whose name is a biblical book in deck, territory, or discard pile: If it’s Ezekiel, reveal a hand.”

This covers most everything while keeping the ability within length.

I'll vote option 5 for now.

I like it! Enough to add it as the 9th option. There is room to make the reveal optional so you aren't forced to reveal your own in some situations. Now we just need to get enough votes to swing.

Ironisaac · « **Reply #5 on:** November 22, 2016, 02:48:43 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on November 22, 2016, 02:41:03 PM

Quote from: Master Q on November 22, 2016, 02:31:48 PM
Darn, and I just thought of this:

“Negate evil search and shuffle abilities. You may exchange this Hero with an O.T. green prophet whose name is a biblical book in deck, territory, or discard pile: If it’s Ezekiel, reveal a hand.”

This covers most everything while keeping the ability within length.

I'll vote option 5 for now.

I like it! Enough to add it as the 9th option. There is room to make the reveal optional so you aren't forced to reveal your own in some situations. Now we just need to get enough votes to swing.

got my vote!

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 22, 2016, 03:40:38 PM »

I hadn't voted yet because I wanted the exchange to be with the book stipulation, but also wanted the added extra that the new option gives! Hopefully people will see the new option and change it over!

The Guardian · « **Reply #7 on:** November 22, 2016, 03:50:38 PM »

Out of curiosity, why is the book stipulation preferable to those who voted for that option?

Ironisaac · « **Reply #8 on:** November 22, 2016, 03:55:31 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on November 22, 2016, 03:50:38 PM

Out of curiosity, why is the book stipulation preferable to those who voted for that option?

I think in another post someone said something about that. I think it was to encourage people to use some of the less used prophets and to discourage them from putting this guy in a deck with moses.

kariusvega · « **Reply #9 on:** November 22, 2016, 04:04:09 PM »

well the only way to make throne faster is to tack a d2 onto this bad boy and there is only one option for that game plan

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 22, 2016, 04:24:35 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on November 22, 2016, 03:50:38 PM

Out of curiosity, why is the book stipulation preferable to those who voted for that option?

I would prefer him to be a little less splashy and be the center piece to an all prophets deck. I know prophets were not active at the same time and interacted with different kings, but I'm hoping we are moving towards more focused offenses where you almost have to choose a theme compared to just throwing different people from every theme into the deck. I guess I feel this makes different decks (that aren't being played) viable, which gives way to more (different types of) decks being played. Anything that adds diversity is better. It is sad that a very specific ability actually adds to diversity, but really when is the last time we saw a "true" prophets deck viable?

Quote from: kariusvega on November 22, 2016, 04:04:09 PM

well the only way to make throne faster is to tack a d2 onto this bad boy and there is only one option for that game plan

I'm not opposed to drawing, I mostly wanted the book stipulation with the negating part at the front.

kariusvega · « **Reply #11 on:** November 22, 2016, 05:16:53 PM »

well i mean the negate is way better anyway because then you can play it with coliseum

i agree though effective decks have become very splashy

it's kind of funny that when i think prophets my brain immediately goes to samuel and moses because of auto.. it's like literally a d2 search guys cbn did that much

7/8 top cut this year auto moses samuel

i mean if we are just trying to get a win for throne and judges up on the boards :p i already know that isn't going anywhere at this rate in a top cut prophets deck

The Schaefer · « **Reply #12 on:** November 22, 2016, 05:49:09 PM »

I switched my vote because I don't think another BoM enable/recur card is good. Samuel still can be gotten (unless it's ruled that Samuel isn't the name of a biblical book and can't be gotten though I doubt it) so the worry is Throne but I don't think the draw 2 if it is Ezekiel speeds up the deck any. Every option basically is a potential search for Samuel (Unless we want to say his name isn't a biblical book again. Which technically it isn't) so that point is kinda mute.
So option 5 for me.

I do want to say I would rather see a negate evil search abilities or even a negate evil banish abilities over the negate confusion clause. It might make it too long though. I just don't think targeting 1 card because the meta uses it right now is right.

kariusvega · « **Reply #13 on:** November 22, 2016, 05:55:22 PM »

samuel is definitely a book of the bible and this card will definitely speed up throne and make samuel more playable

i mean come on don't you want bom and throne to be more viable? ;p

7/8 top cut

The Schaefer · « **Reply #14 on:** November 22, 2016, 08:35:56 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on November 22, 2016, 05:55:22 PM

samuel is definitely a book of the bible and this card will definitely speed up throne and make samuel more playable

Samuel isnt. 1 and 2 Samuel are. It's a technicality but one can hope. Lol

Throne and BOM Don't need more help. Other themes do. I don't think throne gains much from this. BoM would. Throne gets more options to find Sam sure but literally all the options are able to do this so there really isn't much point to talking about it. They BOTH don't need the help imo. But I also don't like the meta and favor balance more than speed which currently the meta is not. BoM is close but it's too played and basically play speed tof get Moses or Joshua Captain. There's not much originality in the Meta minus the deck you brought to Nats Vega. So congrats. But I'm also one of these few that thinks things like the Nats deck from 2 years ago are necessary to allow more controlling themes in the meta and keep the meta balanced. Plus it was very original.

kariusvega · « **Reply #15 on:** November 22, 2016, 08:59:32 PM »

yeah i mean i agree honestly Ezekiel is incredible in a throne deck tbh.. especially one that plays cbn enh and multiple ways to take out coliseum like forest fire and counsel of abby + maybe even shipwreck if necessary at 57 cards having no trouble decking and having gas for a long haul

also to be honest Gabe pretty much built the colossae heretics deck

i tweaked it but i got the idea to play it from the high level play video and just adamantly played it so that there would be something else considered meta.. did that cost me a 1st place at nationals? who knows..

i'm really just for diversity, i love the ideas of:

phillipi offense
ephesus offense
corinth offense
armor of god offense

flood survivors
focused green prophets
genesis offense
priests offenses

emperors defense
raiders camp defenses
sadduccees
syrians

i just don't really see these living up to the necessary power and speed levels of basically what rounds down to what won this year at nationals between 1st and 2nd..

maybe i'm wrong but i play a ton of games on lackey and i mean i know what works and what doesn't and it kind of just looks like they don't really work.. does that mean those cards are worthless? not by a long shot.. it's just unfortunate to me that there are so many new cards that don't even see a wink of play because they are so out shined by cards that have been around for a long time

maybe i haven't seen enough of the game, i've heard that one year it was tgt, one year disciples, etc so who knows

what i really love is seeing a deck like John Earley's 2015 national winner with cards people hadn't even heard of stomping the meta. that is amazing and i love that cloud of witnesses does offer a lot to so many things

i guess i'm just relating to what chris said in terms of kind of having to specialize themes to make them worth playing

anyway, i think that the negate confusion is going to win cause true solid prophets (not judges) do need the speed with the d2 but i also have a feeling there are going to be some other confusion breakers in the next set which could make it less valuable of an ability on the watchman

Watchman · « **Reply #16 on:** November 23, 2016, 09:39:23 AM »

I'm still trying to figure out why "negate confusion," in light of the other option of "negate evil search abilities," is even winning as negate evil search abilities encompasses Confusion and is so much more of a better ability than just narrowly focusing on one particular card. Think beyond the meta and think how The Watchman years down the road will still be a viable card in a strong deck so we don't have a repeat of how cards from the much older sets (ie Apostles and Patriarchs) that target one specific card are virtually never used anymore. I'm sure there will be cards in the future that will probably be a better option than Confusion. If that's the case then the first part of this uniquely created community card's ability will be outdated. However, you can't go wrong with a card that negates evil search abilities, the ability of which is so strong and can have a much broader effect on the game than just targeting one particular card, and as a result will always be a greatly functional card in any deck no matter its age.

MTC

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #17 on:** November 23, 2016, 11:41:07 AM »

The currently winning option is winning because it's the only option with draw 2 instead of hand revealing.

The Guardian · « **Reply #18 on:** November 23, 2016, 12:05:14 PM »

What if instead of "biblical book" stipulation we defined the list of Major and Minor prophets and used that as the criteria?

"Exchange this Hero with a Major or Minor prophet in deck, territory or discard pile."

From Wikipedia--

Major Prophets:
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Daniel
Ezekiel

Minor Prophets:
Hosea
Amos
Micah
Joel
Obadiah
Jonah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

Red Wing · « **Reply #19 on:** November 23, 2016, 12:38:55 PM »

Come on guys, give banish some love.

kariusvega · « **Reply #20 on:** November 23, 2016, 12:55:51 PM »

Kevin is exactly right about the d2 and Guardian's idea is-again- brilliant

Red Wing · « **Reply #21 on:** November 23, 2016, 01:20:28 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on November 23, 2016, 12:05:14 PM

What if instead of "biblical book" stipulation we defined the list of Major and Minor prophets and used that as the criteria?

"Exchange this Hero with a Major or Minor prophet in deck, territory or discard pile."

From Wikipedia--

Major Prophets:
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Daniel
Ezekiel

Minor Prophets:
Hosea
Amos
Micah
Joel
Obadiah
Jonah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

I don't see why we need to muddy the waters by creating yet another definition for players to memorize.

Xonathan · « **Reply #22 on:** November 23, 2016, 01:22:21 PM »

Well it's a pretty useful definition in real life

Watchman · « **Reply #23 on:** November 23, 2016, 01:24:56 PM »

All prophets are major.

Gabe · « **Reply #24 on:** November 23, 2016, 01:36:40 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on November 23, 2016, 01:20:28 PM

I don't see why we need to muddy the waters by creating yet another definition for players to memorize.

I agree that more definitions isn't always a good thing.

Major and minor prophets is something that is already defined outside of the game. The terms are common knowledge in some circles and wouldn't require any additional memorization for players that are already familiar with it. As far as definitions go, it's a pretty easy one.

The Guardian · « **Reply #25 on:** November 23, 2016, 01:37:33 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on November 23, 2016, 01:20:28 PM

I don't see why we need to muddy the waters by creating yet another definition for players to memorize.

We're not creating a definition...the definition is already there. We would simply be adding it to our game so that The Watchman works with the exact set of Heroes we want him to work with.

Master Q · « **Reply #26 on:** November 23, 2016, 02:36:52 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on November 23, 2016, 12:05:14 PM

What if instead of "biblical book" stipulation we defined the list of Major and Minor prophets and used that as the criteria?

"Exchange this Hero with a Major or Minor prophet in deck, territory or discard pile."

From Wikipedia--

Major Prophets:
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Daniel
Ezekiel

Minor Prophets:
Hosea
Amos
Micah
Joel
Obadiah
Jonah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

This is exactly what I was thinking, but wasn't sure if people would get it. So what if it was:

"Negate evil search and shuffle abilities. You may exchange this Hero with a Major or Minor prophet in deck, territory, or discard pile. If it’s Ezekiel, you may reveal a hand or draw 2."

That makes it a lot shorter, and allows for the option of drawing or revealing. The prophets don't even have to be green!

Everyone should be happy with that?

The Guardian · « **Reply #27 on:** November 23, 2016, 03:07:31 PM »

Quote

The prophets don't even have to be green!

That was a sneaky thing I thought of too...purple Ezekiel anyone?

kariusvega · « **Reply #28 on:** November 23, 2016, 05:21:39 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on November 23, 2016, 02:36:52 PM

"Negate evil search and shuffle abilities. You may exchange this Hero with a Major or Minor prophet in deck, territory, or discard pile. If it’s Ezekiel, you may reveal a hand or draw 2."
\

100% would vote for this to be the card. it enables what everyone wants The Watchman to enable without giving too much gas to everything outside of it which is already epic

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #29 on:** November 23, 2016, 06:47:02 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on November 23, 2016, 05:21:39 PM

Quote from: Master Q on November 23, 2016, 02:36:52 PM

"Negate evil search and shuffle abilities. You may exchange this Hero with a Major or Minor prophet in deck, territory, or discard pile. If it’s Ezekiel, you may reveal a hand or draw 2."
\

100% would vote for this to be the card. it enables what everyone wants The Watchman to enable without giving too much gas to everything outside of it which is already epic

I would as well. I think the current voting is skewed because only one option has the draw 2 on it and so everyone who wants that single aspect of the card has to ignore all the other parts such as who it swaps for and what it negates.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #30 on:** November 23, 2016, 09:38:07 PM »

Watchman · « **Reply #31 on:** November 25, 2016, 08:37:06 AM »

I like how that SA works, as well.

Gabe · « **Reply #32 on:** November 27, 2016, 10:32:06 AM »

Based on the comments above I've added Q's suggestion. Voting has been reset and will run until December 1st.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #33 on:** November 27, 2016, 11:21:47 AM »

Thanks Gabe!

I really feel this is the best option to expand the number of viable decks.

kariusvega · « **Reply #34 on:** November 27, 2016, 01:52:35 PM »

I agree this is the best version yet of the special ability for the game and thematically

mr_awesome · « **Reply #35 on:** November 28, 2016, 08:57:40 AM »

Maybe if you exchange with a major prophet Draw 2 if you exchange with a minor prophet Draw 1

ag4hosea · « **Reply #36 on:** November 29, 2016, 09:15:16 AM »

I wasn't satisfied with the options until Master Q's option was added. Looks like mostly everyone was in the same boat

Can't wait to see the card!

Master Q · « **Reply #37 on:** November 30, 2016, 12:10:35 PM »

Something I just thought of: This may sound crazy, but hear me out on this. What if, instead of 1/12 stats, he was made 1/16?

The reason for this would be mostly symbolic, as he is literally 1 of the 16 prophets he switches for. I think that would be pretty sweet.

For gameplay purposes, we know high defense on a low strength Hero is not game-breaking (see Thankful Leper), especially in a brigade with close to zero straight CBN battlewinners with almost no access to toss. For what I can tell, all this would do is make him nearly impervious to toss battles and first strike (the latter of these makes absolute sense for a watchman). He will likely not stay in battle anyway, so it will hardly matter most of the time unless something like 'invert' makes an appearance, which would be cool.

I know all about the stat cap of 12, but I think an exception could be made here, this one time. I definitely don't think the cap should be exceeded in the future, except in very rare instances where the result would be perfect and non game-breaking. This is one of those instances for me, unless someone can think of some good reason against it.

In any case, the level of cooperation and bouncing around ideas on these cards has been fantastic, and you'll hear no complaints from me.

The Guardian · « **Reply #38 on:** November 30, 2016, 01:10:00 PM »

Another idea along those same lines...

4/12

4 major prophets
12 minor prophets

That would be thematic as well as accomplishing the points that Master Q raised while staying in our preferred stat range.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #39 on:** November 30, 2016, 06:29:54 PM »

What about X/12 where X is the number of your green prophets?

ag4hosea · « **Reply #40 on:** December 01, 2016, 07:29:47 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on November 30, 2016, 01:10:00 PM

Another idea along those same lines...

4/12

4 major prophets
12 minor prophets

That would be thematic as well as accomplishing the points that Master Q raised while staying in our preferred stat range.

Quote from: Kevinthedude on November 30, 2016, 06:29:54 PM

What about X/12 where X is the number of your green prophets?

I like both of these suggestions! but still happy with 1/12

News:

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Author Topic: The Watchman SA Vote - Player Created Card Part IX (Read 4444 times)

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