Author Topic: Lost Souls in Endless Time  (Read 1461 times)

Offline SignoftheStar

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Lost Souls in Endless Time
« on: January 19, 2019, 01:47:51 PM »
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For your approval, or lack thereof:

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« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 01:51:31 PM by SignoftheStar »
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2019, 02:22:02 PM »
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Very cool idea.

I think there are too many “regardless of protection” possibilities to get rid of this though. One for sure is Seek and Destroy from TEC. Play it in battle, play burial, gg.

Not to mention you would only have 3 Lost Soul cards in your deck.

I definitely like the concept but it would shift the game way too much and I believe it would be a very dangerous move based on the objective being to redeem LSs


Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2019, 02:34:52 PM »
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Admittedly, I couldn't think of a single thing that could discard a Soul regardless of protection.
Very well, rewrite it as an instead.
But even if your opponent could do something like that, a living metagame would bring out the significantly more common cards that'll take souls out of the discard pile. Even the Awake Soul can do that.

The point of course is to make it so that you have fewer Souls in the deck in exchange for a Soul that never goes away. Your opponent can still rip it out via the eight billion soul gen options in the game, and then you'll have to prepare to defend it every single turn.
When souls aren't in play, the game just stagnates. There should be the possibility for rescue as much as humanly possible.
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Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2019, 02:38:53 PM »
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If necessary, we could just do it this way:

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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2019, 05:36:04 PM »
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Still some wording corrections, I think.

Should read return to “owner’s” LOB rather than “your”.  Otherwise I believe the lost soul would go to rescuing player’s LOB to create a token in the same LOB.

Not sure how the ability part would work anyway since when it is rescued (I.e. when it hits opponent’s LOR) the ability would not work. My thinking is along the lines of territory class characters treated as lost souls or in set aside area.

The wording would require if rescued, create a LS token in rescuing players LOR instead.

Since the wording change on the first version, I am not sure if the rescue regardless of protection is necessary anymore so hopefully that will create more room for other words.

Possible wording:

When this Lost Soul is rescued, create a Lost Soul token in rescuing player’s Land of Redemption and Land of Bondage instead. If this card leaves play, return it to your Land of Bondage instead. Cannot be negated.

Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2019, 05:10:36 AM »
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I appreciate the feedback, Goalie!

I like the idea of the changing the token generation to an instead. I did want to keep the "rescue regardless of protection" bit to get around little things like Simon the Magician or Worshipping Demons, making this soul a valid rescue target as much as humanly possible.

I'll admit, the idea of creating a token in the rescuer's Land of Bondage is a tantalizing possibility. It would add just that much more incentive to running it.
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2019, 04:28:23 PM »
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I'd run 2 of these in my T2 Daniel deck and then I'd have room for 8 more Daniel Cards. That'd be great. I really don't mind blocking every turn (I build my decks with that expectation anyway) and the fact that this would make my Daniel deck more Daniel is a big deal.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2019, 05:44:53 PM »
+1
I think it would need to be worded as such:

"When put in play, put 5 Redeemed Soul tokens here. If rescued, give the rescuer a Redeemed Soul token to his Land of Redemption instead. Restrict players from targeting this card (except with Son of God). Cannot be negated."

It would almost need to be an instead to have it work the way you want, and it would almost need to be a restrict to get around the 'Regardless of protect' stuff. Also, this way it's limited to how many redeemed souls it can be worth (your version was not). Meaning, it's only ever worth 5 souls, and never more. So opponents couldn't rescue it endlessly in MP.


All that said, there will never ever be a card like this.
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Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2019, 09:31:18 PM »
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All that said, there will never ever be a card like this.

That's a shame.
How come?
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Offline Asahel24601

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2019, 11:24:33 PM »
+1
All that said, there will never ever be a card like this.

That's a shame.
How come?

Because it's a problem of soul hiding. It lets you run five fewer souls, and thus, five more cards to draw (and use) instead of a soul. It would go in every deck that it could fit in, and it would force soul tutors (Like CoW Melchizidek and EC Barnabas) to be in every deck. Themes that can't generate Souls consistently (or need to search O.T. souls like Shem's Wife) would fall by the wayside, as it's unlikely for your opponent to draw the three souls in their deck.

It's worse in type 2, though. 110 cards with only 3 souls. That would be horribly unfun to play against.

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2019, 07:35:36 AM »
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All that said, there will never ever be a card like this.

That's a shame.
How come?

Because it's a problem of soul hiding. It lets you run five fewer souls, and thus, five more cards to draw (and use) instead of a soul. It would go in every deck that it could fit in, and it would force soul tutors (Like CoW Melchizidek and EC Barnabas) to be in every deck. Themes that can't generate Souls consistently (or need to search O.T. souls like Shem's Wife) would fall by the wayside, as it's unlikely for your opponent to draw the three souls in their deck.

It's worse in type 2, though. 110 cards with only 3 souls. That would be horribly unfun to play against.
True all of the above.

What if the SA specified that the card starts in play?  Extra slots in your deck for whatever you want in exchange for your opponent always having access to a lost soul.

Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2019, 08:14:55 AM »
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I can't speak for Type II myself, but I feel that at least a minimal amount of soul gen is deeply important in a modern deck. Something like this would be a clear target for common and infinitely splashable cards like, say, the Awake Soul, or, better yet, Harvest Time? The lack of souls in the deck ironically makes it much easier to drop, and then you never have to wait for another soul for the rest of the game.

What if the SA specified that the card starts in play?  Extra slots in your deck for whatever you want in exchange for your opponent always having access to a lost soul.

I also think this is cool: slap an identifier on it that places it on top of the deck at the start of the game.
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Offline Kor

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2019, 08:19:14 AM »
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All that said, there will never ever be a card like this.

That's a shame.
How come?

Because it's a problem of soul hiding. It lets you run five fewer souls, and thus, five more cards to draw (and use) instead of a soul. It would go in every deck that it could fit in, and it would force soul tutors (Like CoW Melchizidek and EC Barnabas) to be in every deck. Themes that can't generate Souls consistently (or need to search O.T. souls like Shem's Wife) would fall by the wayside, as it's unlikely for your opponent to draw the three souls in their deck.

It's worse in type 2, though. 110 cards with only 3 souls. That would be horribly unfun to play against.
True all of the above.

What if the SA specified that the card starts in play?  Extra slots in your deck for whatever you want in exchange for your opponent always having access to a lost soul.

That’s not a trade worth making (Other than Daniel deck).  If you want extra cards in your deck you already have the option of going up a deck size by adding one soul as opposed to always having a soul in play that has no useful SA.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 08:29:47 AM by Kor »
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Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2019, 09:57:55 AM »
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Technically, but the draw potential for a given card goes down with the increased deck sizes.
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Offline Kor

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2019, 11:26:03 AM »
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Technically, but the draw potential for a given card goes down with the increased deck sizes.

The same way it would if you replaced lost souls with other cards...as lost souls don’t take up draws.
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Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2019, 06:20:40 PM »
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A 50 card deck with three souls has the same draw potential as a 54 card deck with seven.
In my experience, when you go up a deck size, you tend to go to the higher end to justify the additional souls.
If you took four of your souls and replaced them with other cards, the draw potential of cards would go down a little bit, but now you have a higher concentration of non-Soul cards, meaning each draw has a higher chance of not being a Soul, which adds more draw value to every card you draw.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2019, 06:33:23 PM »
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A 50 card deck with three souls has the same draw potential as a 54 card deck with seven.
In my experience, when you go up a deck size, you tend to go to the higher end to justify the additional souls.
If you took four of your souls and replaced them with other cards, the draw potential of cards would go down a little bit, but now you have a higher concentration of non-Soul cards, meaning each draw has a higher chance of not being a Soul, which adds more draw value to every card you draw.

Removing souls from your deck does increase the average card value of your deck as a whole but does not increase the average value of each card draw since souls place themselves. Drawing a card has the same value either way and actually having more souls in your deck actually increases the value of each instance of card draw if you count the soul special abilities as beneficial.

Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2019, 06:38:42 PM »
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That's true, but I rarely consider a Soul draw as valuable as other cards in my deck.
Which is to say, I'd always rather draw something else.
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Offline Kor

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2019, 06:42:51 PM »
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That's true, but I rarely consider a Soul draw as valuable as other cards in my deck.
Which is to say, I'd always rather draw something else.

I would usually rather get the soul because then I get the soul AND something else. Any additional value is better than none.  In the case of Prosperity and Lawless, that value is an entire extra card!
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Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2019, 06:47:26 PM »
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Yes, but it comes with the price of having to defend yourself from your opponent scoring.
I could have cards that do very much what my Souls do without running that risk.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2019, 06:48:58 PM »
+1
Yes, but it comes with the price of having to defend yourself from your opponent scoring.
I could have cards that do very much what my Souls do without running that risk.

In a type 1 game between two players with tuned decks it's very rare for either player to get a block by not having to defend.

Offline Kor

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2019, 06:52:40 PM »
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Yes, but it comes with the price of having to defend yourself from your opponent scoring.
I could have cards that do very much what my Souls do without running that risk.

In a type 1 game between two players with tuned decks it's very rare for either player to get a block by not having to defend.

Agreed, and in these comparisons, the other option is always having lost souls of endless time out...
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Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2019, 08:26:20 PM »
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In a type 1 game between two players with tuned decks it's very rare for either player to get a block by not having to defend.

Getting souls when you're not ready to block effectively, either because you haven't drawn into your resources or they've been exhausted, is something that happens on every level. Walk-in rescues are rare, sure, but being fully prepared for 100% of your opponent's rescue attempts is also rare. If I had the choice between a Lost Soul and a Fortress/Site/T-class Character/etc. with the same special ability, I would ALWAYS prefer the other card and not the Soul.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2019, 08:36:25 PM »
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All that said, there will never ever be a card like this.

That's a shame.
How come?

It's never going to be printed simply due to the ability being the way it is- Long past the point of where text on cards should end, stipulations just to make it work, bound to bring up a barrage of repeat questions in tournaments, and CBN on a LS.

All that and it's an unstable element being added to a firm foundation (# of LS in the deck). T2 problems aside, soul-hiding as a strategy could become a thing again with this card (think before it's played: Divination, Fearless Traveler, etc), and that's just something that shouldn't be easier.

And, if having those extra four cards in your deck that used to be LS did (I don't know that it would) prove to outweigh the loss of missing those other LS, then it would become a staple, and deck diversity suffers. LS are one of the coolest elements of making your deck, and I would hate to see something like this take out five souls right off the bat.
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Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2019, 08:48:45 PM »
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LS are one of the coolest elements of making your deck, and I would hate to see something like this take out five souls right off the bat.

I'll admit, I've never seen someone with such an appreciation for Lost Souls before.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2019, 09:48:43 PM »
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The game has definitely gotten to the point where LS selection is a critical part of the deck building process. Up until Cloud of Witnesses, there were very few strategy variations of Lost Soul selection (the main ones being the inclusion of Lost Souls, and/or the inclusion of the Negate LS). 

At this point, there are legitimately 13 different Lost Souls that I pretty much always at least consider for my T1 decks.

Prosperity, Dull, Lawless, Humble, Hunter, Imitate, Forsaken, Darkness, Exiles, Wanderer, Punisher, Awake, Covet
(Vindicated is another LS I haven't used much myself, but have seen other people use effectively.)

Some are easy to cut for some decks (i.e. Imitate won't go in an OT soul line-up and Covet wouldn't be used if I have more than one NT soul), but the right LS selection is a critical aspect of competitive decks these days.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 09:22:54 AM by The Guardian »
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2019, 09:54:27 PM »
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And for the record, I think the idea is intriguing, but mostly in the regard that it would fundamentally alter the way the game is played. However, I'm not of the opinion that we need that kind of change.
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2019, 11:09:12 PM »
+1
Prosperity, Dull, Lawless, Humble, Exchanger, Imitate, Forsaken, Darkness, Exiles, Wanderer, Punisher, Awake, Covet
(Vindicated is another LS I haven't used much myself, but have seen other people use effectively.)

What’s the difference between Exchanger and Wanderer?

 ::)

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2019, 09:22:41 AM »
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 :rollin:

Oops... I was thinking about it though, and there's now some decks where I've started using Hunter LS, so still 13.  ;D
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Offline Josh

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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2019, 10:05:25 AM »
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A 50 card deck with three souls has the same draw potential as a 54 card deck with seven.


By "draw potential", I assume you mean "the same number of non-LS cards" - 47, as it were.  Since LS replace themselves, I've always ignored them from a deck size standpoint.  A 50 card deck w/ Hopper is a 42 card deck.

But deck size is irrelevant.  What is extremely relevant is the variation that would be created if you could make a deck that only ran 3 LS cards.  If the 5-LS-in-1 comes up early in the game, then your opponent gets to make rescues.  If it's at the bottom of your deck, they most likely don't.  It's so swingy, and would definitely not be fun to play against. 

And if you are going to propose that this 5-LS-in-1 card start on the top of your deck by game rule...  Well, at that point you might as well just propose that all LS be in a separate deck.

Keith Bartram suggested that winning a battle challenge should create a lost soul token in the Land of Bondage of the loser of the battle challenge.  Not only would this create more strategy when it comes to accepting battle challenges, but would also potentially stop extensive soul-droughts.
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Re: Lost Souls in Endless Time
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2019, 10:24:54 AM »
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And if you are going to propose that this 5-LS-in-1 card start on the top of your deck by game rule...  Well, at that point you might as well just propose that all LS be in a separate deck.

In fairness this (5-LS-in-1 start at top) is not really comparable to the separate LS deck proposal. In the separate LS deck proposal both players are forced to do this, which limits diversity in (viable) deck strategies. This is not directly relevant to creating a card which can optionally be included or not (which may expand the number of viable strategies).

 

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