Author Topic: Jonah Cards  (Read 1161 times)

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Jonah Cards
« on: September 05, 2018, 12:06:26 PM »
+1
Jonah
5/9 grey, 9/5 green
starts evil, Prophet, X=# of Assyrians
Jonah cards cannot be negated.  If this hero enters battle, negate cities and convert X evil humans to green

Big Fish
10/12 crimson
TC animal
Take Jonah from deck or discard.  When entering battle, you may set Jonah aside for 1 turn to convert him to a hero and he gains "Prevent evil characters"

Nineveh
City, fortress hold any number of humans
Fort (evil)-After blocking, if there are more Assyrians in battle than heroes, you may capture a human and place him here.  Opponent may withdraw all heroes instead
Site (green)-Protect Assyrians in territory from opponents.  When attacked, take a Assyrian or weapon from reserve

Ship to Tarshish
Fort (evil), play to set aside
search deck or reserve for a human and place here.  protect contents from characters.  When a fortress is played, return to hand.

Pagan Sailors
3/3 grey/black human EC
search deck for a fortress.  You may discard your human to protect your fortresses and all EC in battle from discard.  cannot be interrupted

worm
0/1 crimson animal
All discard abilities are regardless of protection.  cannot be prevented

Jonah's plant
green TC enhancement
protect this prophet from the first enhancement played each battle

Relenting from destruction
3/4 green enhancement
interrupt the battle and discard any number of evil enhancements.  if played on a converted human, convert a evil human to green and this card cannot be negated



Offline Bobbert

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2018, 12:36:08 PM »
+1
1. Play Jonah with an Assyrian defense
2. Wait until opponent has defense out
3. Grail Jonah
4. Play down your entire defense and Assyrian Camp
5. Attack with Jonah
6. Convert their entire defense and none of yours (since Camp protects them)
7. ???
8. Prophet


Okay, more seriously:
I think a hero that can convert ECs whenever he attacks is actually pretty strong. I'm also a bit concerned about him starting as an EC - while I can certainly see the logic, there are a lot of characters who did far worse that are straight heroes, and with the implication that he's going to be reprinted as cloud this year I think it's pretty straight to assume that he'll be only good.
Big Fish is pretty good, especially with DAC Jonah. I would personally prefer one like the one that was posted earlier that's both enhancement and character like Leviathan, but for this group of cards I like it.
I think the fort ability on Ninevah is pretty strong - it's pretty easy for Assyrians to get three into battle, which makes the capture/withdraw pretty easy to achieve. If you want to keep that ability I might make it only capture a hero in territory, so that it's not an instant battlewinner. Like the site part - could definitely see something like that.
Ship is a fascinating idea. I like, although it'll incentivize running a lot of forts.
I tend to shy away from CBI protection, so I think Sailors is a bit strong. Definitely a good cost, though, so it might be okay.
Worm is pretty good. Might be a little too strong with instant initiative, but the fact that it's all and not yours might be balanced enough.
I assume Plant is placed on a prophet? Strong, but fully negatable and relatively easily removable. I dig it.
Relenting is basically Zeal - play it off Jonah (or another converted character) for CBN interrupt battlewinner and get rid of 2 ECs. Might be a tad strong - most interrupt battlewinners are - but I can see it.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 12:38:20 PM by Bobbert »
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Offline Josh

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2018, 08:19:33 AM »
0
I'm also a bit concerned about him starting as an EC - while I can certainly see the logic, there are a lot of characters who did far worse that are straight heroes, and with the implication that he's going to be reprinted as cloud this year I think it's pretty straight to assume that he'll be only good.

Agree with this - I can't see why Jonah would be an evil character.

Yeah, Scripture records two sins of his.  Two. 

But he was still a prophet of God. 
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2018, 09:05:03 AM »
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I wanted the card to represent Jonah's whole journey, no just part of it.  He literally ran from God, I wanted that to be part of the card.  I like cards the Saul/Paul that make you work to get the uber strong hero.  Yea he could be just a straight hero, and probably will be in the new set, this is just how I would want him to be.  I don't make cards often, so when I do I try to make things that are different than the norm while still being possible

Offline Bobbert

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2018, 09:31:03 AM »
0
David, while shirking his duty (why was the king at home while his armies were at war?), committed adultery, murder to cover it up, and hid it until a prophet who God had specifically told about it confronted him with a metaphor. He also explicitly disobeyed God's command to trust him and took a census to see how strong his army could be.

I don't see an evil David any time soon.

That said, I could see running from God being a part of his ability - or even another card. Maybe he underdecks himself after a successful rescue? Or maybe go to Ship instead, if it's in play? That could be interesting. Or maybe Running from God is just an EE.
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2018, 09:37:03 AM »
0
I could see an evil David being made, or a David that if converted got some kind of ability (that would be a rule change for the game, but I don't see that as a problem).  Lately multiple cards have been made for the same character representing different parts of their life, which is ok, I just prefer when possible for one card to represent an entire character, like King Saul.   

Offline uthminister [BR]

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 10:08:31 AM »
+2
I personally love browsing the New Card Idea section and truth be told, many times we take ideas from here as a starting point for new cards we will eventually print. This thread is an example of just that. May I introduce to you the two newest additions to your Redemption arsenal...

Spoiler (hover to show)

Spoiler (hover to show)

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2018, 10:22:35 AM »
+2
really like Nineveh, super useful to have fall of man's ability on a evil fortress.  Was hoping Jonah would have more power though, hes the main character of the book and he doesn't do anything in battle, and letting them chose which card is shuffled makes it not a very powerful ability IMO, most decks use so many heroes that its easy to chose one to shuffle, it could even help Samuel decks by letting you search for david or saul again.  taking the limit off the X would help, but I would really like to see Jonah owner get to chose what's shuffled

Offline Watchman

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2018, 10:38:43 AM »
0
I would really like to see Jonah owner get to chose what's shuffled

 +1 “...if opponent uses a search ability, you may shuffle their card...”

This change would make him quite powerful since the controller of Jonah chooses the target. Maybe he can be the good prophet Priest of Zeus equivalent. But I wonder if he should have unity if it is changed. He would definitely be splashable. But his ability is a nice counter to searching, regardless of it being the controlling player’s choice or not.
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2018, 10:42:19 AM »
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If Nineveh isn't in play, Jonah is literally a 4/5 no sa prophet. He's also kinda a reverse Music Leaders, which is funny but I'm not sure if it's particularly good.

Nineveh is fantastic. Fun with big guys and Tribute particularly.


After chewing on this a couple minutes, I think I'm okay with Jonah. He's not a hero to build a deck around like Isaiah, but I think that's okay. That said, I might consider adding something for him to do in battle so he's not an artifact with a cross symbol on it like ML. After all, he did end up going and actually saving souls (despite his best efforts)  ;)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 10:48:05 AM by Bobbert »
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2018, 10:44:45 AM »
+1
I would really like to see Jonah owner get to chose what's shuffled

 +1 “...if opponent uses a search ability, you may shuffle their card...”

This change would make him quite powerful since the controller of Jonah chooses the target. Maybe he can be the good prophet Priest of Zeus equivalent. But I wonder if he should have unity if it is changed. He would definitely be splashable. But his ability is a nice counter to searching, regardless of it being the controlling player’s choice or not.

If this change were made he would probably need to get "in their territory" added so he can't win battles with it since that would already make it significantly more powerful.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2018, 10:45:49 AM »
+1
If Nineveh isn't in play, Jonah is literally a 4/5 no sa prophet. He's also kinda a reverse Music Leaders, which is funny but I'm not sure if it's particularly good.

Nineveh is fantastic. I'm looking forward to preventing them from AotL'ing ASA.

That’s a good point about his ability being nothing without Nineveh in play. I’d recommend removing that prerequisite so his ability can function whether or not Nineveh is in play. That would make him more like ML or PoZ.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2018, 11:04:01 AM »
+3
Was hoping Jonah would have more power though, hes the main character of the book and he doesn't do anything in battle, and letting them chose which card is shuffled makes it not a very powerful ability IMO, most decks use so many heroes that its easy to chose one to shuffle, it could even help Samuel decks by letting you search for david or saul again.  taking the limit off the X would help, but I would really like to see Jonah owner get to chose what's shuffled

Ever since TEC, a good chunk of Redemption cards have search abilities.  This has increased significantly since the advent of the Reserve, as basically all abilities that access the Reserve are searches.

Go to the PoC spoilers and just start counting how many search abilities there are.  If you lose 1 or 2 cards each time you search, you'll quickly discover that you want to avoid searching unless absolutely necessary.

That being said, I'd prefer Jonah to not be so dependent on Nineveh being in play (ironically, Jonah's controller would be dependent on Searches to make this happen faster), and I'd like to see something more like:

"When opponent uses a search ability, if you control an Assyrian, they must shuffle their card (or 2 cards if Nineveh is in play)."
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2018, 11:55:54 AM »
+1
Here's the first of 2 Jonah cards I have the privilege of sharing with you today.

Spoiler (hover to show)
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Offline Lampy 2.0

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2018, 11:59:27 AM »
0
I am really happy we're finally getting a new Jonah hero! He hasn't had a card since the Prophets expansion.
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2018, 12:27:16 PM »
0
Here's the first of 2 Jonah cards I have the privilege of sharing with you today.

Spoiler (hover to show)


Interesting card. Minor consideration that might be overpowered, but making it if an Assyrian is in battle instead of if opposed by one could have some fun implications with Ninevites.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2018, 12:33:25 PM »
+2
Here's the first of 2 Jonah cards I have the privilege of sharing with you today.

Spoiler (hover to show)


Interesting card. Minor consideration that might be overpowered, but making it if an Assyrian is in battle instead of if opposed by one could have some fun implications with Ninevites.


I don't see this getting played at all unless Assyrians are a huge portion of the competitive defenses, in which case it's power level would be justified. Floodgate cards like this one that range from niche to extremely powerful based on the power level of another given card or strategy are good for the health of the game.

Offline Kor

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2018, 12:48:08 PM »
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Seems like I have the opposite opinion of most so far.  I think that Jonah is very strong as is (though as has been pointed out, definitely a support character not a battle character), and I think that while the fortress side of Ninevah is okay, it is definitely the 'plan B' option on the card.  Allow me to explain.

Jonah Strength

Without an Assyrian defense, this ability is still good and I would say worth including in decks that run green.  However where it really shines is in Assyrian decks where the shuffle 2 is insane and will quickly deplete your opponent's territory.  Yes sometimes your opponent will be able to gain a small advantage, but it will not make up for the shuffle 2 if they want to keep searching which is something almost all decks do, and sometimes they even must (or could be forced to with choose the rescuer/blocker).  As for needing Ninevah in play, I think that it is good to have another potential way to stop his ability, but it shouldn't really stop it from starting because the Site ability can be used to search him out from reserve (which is where you probably want him unless you are running a green deck).

Ninevah

If you are running Assyrians, you want to use the Site portion of this to grab Jonah, unless you had Jonah in your deck and already drew him or can't search.  The fortress portion, which restricts players from playing dominants while your Assyrian is blocking, sounds really good at first.  But 90% you are only stopping in battle AoTL with this which probably isn't most Assyrian character's problem.  Most of the time you want to use AoTL on low numbers characters when you do not have initiative to stop your opponent from winning the battle before you can play.  The best Assyrian for low numbers - Assyrian Survivor, is already protected from discard abilities so it doesn't help him at all.  The high numbers characters like Assyrian Siege Army, you use with 2k horses, or you put in battle, get their ability off and then your opponent has initiative and probably plays a CBN battle winner.  At least when I AoTL siege army I prefer to use it before it gets it's ability off, while it is still in territory (if unprotected).  And what other dominants does it stop?  Stopping Grapes of Wrath probably hurts you more than your opponent because you can't use it to get an ability off and block!  Three Woes would be stopped as well, but has so many other good times to play it probably won't hurt your opponent much to restrict that timing (and it also stops yours during the same timing).
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2018, 01:01:18 PM »
+2
We would be remiss to print Jonah cards without including this.

Spoiler (hover to show)
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Offline Josh

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2018, 01:01:34 PM »
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And what other dominants does it stop?  Stopping Grapes of Wrath probably hurts you more than your opponent because you can't use it to get an ability off and block!  Three Woes would be stopped as well, but has so many other good times to play it probably won't hurt your opponent much to restrict that timing (and it also stops yours during the same timing).

Stopping your opponent from using 3 Woes as a CBN negate during battle is a big deal.  That's the ideal way to play it, as it essentially becomes a 2-for-1. 

Also, this hinders your opponent from using TSC during battle (as a 2nd AotL, searching out Doms, etc).
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2018, 01:08:27 PM »
0
the great fish is insane, love the negate and the auto-win, but all fully negateable

Offline Bobbert

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2018, 01:31:31 PM »
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What exactly does Jonah target? Can he hit hand? Set aside? LSs? I know that default for targeting is play but my memory is a bit fuzzy on how that interacts with "their" card.

I love Fish. GE is a bit bland but the animal is incredible. Especially great if you can get multiple blocks in those extra turns.

Responding to Kor - I do think that what happened with Babel is sort of happening with Nineveh here. A solid 80% of the talk surrounding Babel when it was first revealed was concerned with the fort, since it's obviously a powerful ability. That said, I think I've played it as a site notably more often than as a fort. Granted, both decks that I use it in gain more value from it that way (especially early), but still. Considering that we now have 4* characters to grab, all of which are at least decent and one of which only works while it's in play, it does seem like the site may be a better option (especially since you can activate it multiple times without it needing to leave play, unlike Babel). That said, I do agree with Josh - even with tall characters restricting doms is incredibly powerful.
As far as Jonah's concerned, I agree that he's probably good, but I'm not sure I like that he's entirely dependent on Nineveh. Again, kill the city and suddenly he's... maybe okay for initiative? Playing Anger CBN, I guess? Point is, if I want green initiative I'd rather have Hosea, who (in my opinion, at the moment) is pretty autoinclude in a straight prophets deck anyway - which, again IMO, is the best offense to pair with the Assyrians you'd want to play Jonah with.

*by my count - Jonah, Ninevites, Fish, and Worm. Let me know if I missed any.
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2018, 02:07:56 PM »
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I’m curious why the other dual alignment animals have two evil brigades on the character side, but The Great Fish doesn’t? It seems like PG/Crimson would make sense in this case in the same way that I am sure Fire Foxes has black due to the relation to Philistines (while not being a Philistine character).

Thoughts?

Offline Watchman

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2018, 02:20:38 PM »
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I’m curious why the other dual alignment animals have two evil brigades on the character side, but The Great Fish doesn’t? It seems like PG/Crimson would make sense in this case in the same way that I am sure Fire Foxes has black due to the relation to Philistines (while not being a Philistine character).

Thoughts?

You’re thinking of Leviathan and Behemoth, both of which are Job evil Characters. Job evil Characters are brown, hence the brown and crimson. Same logic with Firefoxes, as you cited, and Magicians’ Snakes (FoM).

I’d disagree with the PG being added to TGF as he’s not directly associated with Assyria. But I can see your argument for PG being added due to the association with Jonah/Jonah story as the Job animals are associated with Job/book of Job.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 03:02:22 PM by Watchman »
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Offline Reth

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Re: Jonah Cards
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2018, 02:28:08 PM »
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If Nineveh isn't in play, Jonah is literally a 4/5 no sa prophet. He's also kinda a reverse Music Leaders, which is funny but I'm not sure if it's particularly good.

Nineveh is fantastic. I'm looking forward to preventing them from AotL'ing ASA.

That’s a good point about his ability being nothing without Nineveh in play. I’d recommend removing that prerequisite so his ability can function whether or not Nineveh is in play. That would make him more like ML or PoZ.

 +1 with all points from quotings above!