Author Topic: Mark sleeves for Reserve?  (Read 5761 times)

Offline emonier

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Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« on: March 16, 2018, 09:53:24 AM »
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QUESTION:

I know that Reserve cards have to have the same sleeve color as the rest of the deck (so that they blend in after you retrieve them and add them to your deck).

But, how do you distinguish them after the game ends, when you have to separate them out to get ready for the next game?

I have been putting a little sticker on the front of the card with an "R" on it, but I was told in the last tournament that this was illegal (even though you can't see the sticker when they are face down).

Are there are any other good solutions? If not, it would seem that it would be hard to find all the reserve cards and pull them between games.

Thank you,

ELM

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2018, 09:59:53 AM »
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I have been putting a little sticker on the front of the card with an "R" on it, but I was told in the last tournament that this was illegal (even though you can't see the sticker when they are face down).
What was the the reason behind the ruling that it was illegal?

Offline emonier

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2018, 10:10:30 AM »
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Not sure -- ask Watchman492.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 10:14:46 AM »
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Spoiler (hover to show)

You are supposed to have a list of the cards in your Reserve that gets checked in with your deck. That way you can easily remember all the cards you started with in the Reserve after each round.

Edit* Sorry the image is so large--it's set to print size.
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Offline emonier

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 10:26:19 AM »
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Thanks,

Yeah, I knew about the list, but I still think it would be easier to mark them in some way so you can pull them easier (with a quick visual scan).

Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 10:51:50 AM »
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Here is the original post that it was asked and told that we weren't allowed to do it. But hey Eric someone else made a good point they put the card in upside down on all the cards in the reserve I think that's a pretty good idea as well.

http://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-tournaments/the-reserve-39223/msg573358/#msg573358

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2018, 11:16:30 AM »
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So, this may be a stupid question, but why don't you simply take a permanent Sharpie(tm) and write a letter R on the outside front of your "reserve" sleeves?

Offline Watchman

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2018, 11:38:18 AM »
+1
Or why not just have a list of the cards in your reserve as required by the rules and put all cards back into the appropriate place after the game ends? I know what cards are in my reserve and what aren’t.
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Offline emonier

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2018, 11:59:22 AM »
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Or why not just have a list of the cards in your reserve as required by the rules and put all cards back into the appropriate place after the game ends? I know what cards are in my reserve and what aren’t.

Yes, but it still takes longer to go through and find them all.

I like the magic marker idea -- a little "R" on the bottom right corner?

Would that be legal?

Thanks,

E

Offline Watchman

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2018, 12:06:15 PM »
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Or why not just have a list of the cards in your reserve as required by the rules and put all cards back into the appropriate place after the game ends? I know what cards are in my reserve and what aren’t.

Yes, but it still takes longer to go through and find them all.

I like the magic marker idea -- a little "R" on the bottom right corner?

Would that be legal?

Thanks,

E

But it would take just as long to find the marked sleeves as it does to find the ones you know go in the reserve...
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Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2018, 12:20:12 PM »
+1
That's only true if you memorize the cards in your reserve. Apparently me and Eric don't do that because I'm constantly making adjustments to my deck. Marking the sleeves is a great idea.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2018, 12:29:52 PM »
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Or if you have a list in front of you... ::)

In any case, the general principle is that you cannot alter the sleeves in such a way that they could be distinguished (whether by sight or touch) when you are shuffling the deck.
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Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2018, 12:33:37 PM »
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I will always be able to find the cards faster with a sticker in the inside or the outside of the sleeve way faster than anyone can find it with a list.

At Nationals I double sleeved my cards and the inside sleeve had a sticker on it and none of the judges who checked in my decks had a problem with it.

Offline emonier

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2018, 06:05:04 PM »
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At Nationals I double sleeved my cards and the inside sleeve had a sticker on it and none of the judges who checked in my decks had a problem with it.

Great idea!

Did you use a thin, clear sleeve (the kind you get inside of packs) for the inner sleeve?

It seems like that would fit better inside the main sleeve.

Thanks,

E

P.S. Watchman: will this be legal at your tournament next Sat?

Offline Watchman

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2018, 06:49:17 PM »
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At Nationals I double sleeved my cards and the inside sleeve had a sticker on it and none of the judges who checked in my decks had a problem with it.

Great idea!

Did you use a thin, clear sleeve (the kind you get inside of packs) for the inner sleeve?

It seems like that would fit better inside the main sleeve.

Thanks,

E

P.S. Watchman: will this be legal at your tournament next Sat?

Since it’s an official tournament the only permitted way of what’s knowing what’s in your reserve is what the Reserve rules say is permissible, which is a list of what’s in your reserve.
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2018, 07:07:37 PM »
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At Nationals I double sleeved my cards and the inside sleeve had a sticker on it and none of the judges who checked in my decks had a problem with it.

Great idea!

Did you use a thin, clear sleeve (the kind you get inside of packs) for the inner sleeve?

It seems like that would fit better inside the main sleeve.

Thanks,

E

P.S. Watchman: will this be legal at your tournament next Sat?

Since it’s an official tournament the only permitted way of what’s knowing what’s in your reserve is what the Reserve rules say is permissible, which is a list of what’s in your reserve.

I don't think there's any need to be legalistic over it. As long as it's not distinguishable from the other cards in the deck I'd allow it.

That being said, a list is still required on paper for deck check
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2018, 07:23:49 PM »
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There will always be things that are not quite spelled out to the letter in the tournament guide. While we have tried not to have anything in there that is open to interpretation, we obviously can't cover every specific question.

When there is a question like this, the host is simply expected to use their best judgement and players should abide by it. If a player is concerned that a tournament host at a different tournament might rule differently, they should do their best to contact the host beforehand (just like has been done here).  :)
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Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2018, 07:50:28 PM »
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At Nationals I double sleeved my cards and the inside sleeve had a sticker on it and none of the judges who checked in my decks had a problem with it.

Great idea!

Did you use a thin, clear sleeve (the kind you get inside of packs) for the inner sleeve?

It seems like that would fit better inside the main sleeve.

Thanks,

E

P.S. Watchman: will this be legal at your tournament next Sat?

Yes I use specific double sleeve sleeves they're a real tight fit. You can get them off Amazon.

Offline NathanW

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2018, 11:16:31 PM »
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At Nationals I double sleeved my cards and the inside sleeve had a sticker on it and none of the judges who checked in my decks had a problem with it.

Great idea!

Did you use a thin, clear sleeve (the kind you get inside of packs) for the inner sleeve?

It seems like that would fit better inside the main sleeve.

Thanks,

E

P.S. Watchman: will this be legal at your tournament next Sat?

Yes I use specific double sleeve sleeves they're a real tight fit. You can get them off Amazon.

I assume the tight fit changes based on whether the card is the wider or thinner variety :P
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Offline Isildur

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2018, 01:11:36 AM »
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I have been putting a little sticker on the front of the card with an "R" on it, but I was told in the last tournament that this was illegal (even though you can't see the sticker when they are face down).
What was the the reason behind the ruling that it was illegal?
I'm assuming he put the sticker on the outside of the clear part of the sleeve.

When you pile shuffle you can in "theory" feel the clear part of the sleeve and tell which ones have stickers and which ones don't.
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Offline Isildur

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2018, 01:12:56 AM »
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Or why not just have a list of the cards in your reserve as required by the rules and put all cards back into the appropriate place after the game ends? I know what cards are in my reserve and what aren’t.
That'd be too easy :P
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2018, 09:35:29 AM »
+1
I have been putting a little sticker on the front of the card with an "R" on it, but I was told in the last tournament that this was illegal (even though you can't see the sticker when they are face down).
What was the the reason behind the ruling that it was illegal?
I'm assuming he put the sticker on the outside of the clear part of the sleeve.
Yeah, I understood that from the follow-on discussion.  In my defense, however, that was not what emonier asked about, he asked about putting a sticker on "the front of the card" not on the front of the sleeve.  That--putting a sticker on a card--should be totally allowed, provided the sticker does not confer an in game advantage (like covering a stat or a key word in an SA).

Offline Sadness

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2018, 12:45:10 PM »
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This is kinda a question and not meant to anger anyone. I agree with the making a list to what cards are in your reserve pile. Instead of putting a sticker on the card sleeve, could you choose a different color card sleeve instead as a way to tell your deck apart from your reserve pile or would that be considered a no-no?
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2018, 12:46:56 PM »
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This is kinda a question and not meant to anger anyone. I agree with the making a list to what cards are in your reserve pile. Instead of putting a sticker on the card sleeve, could you choose a different color card sleeve instead as a way to tell your deck apart from your reserve pile or would that be considered a no-no?

If you did this they would be considered marked and illegal.  The reason why is because some of the cards with reserve access makes you shuffle.  So shuffling a card with a different sleeves makes it marked.

Offline NathanW

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2018, 12:47:06 PM »
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This is kinda a question and not meant to anger anyone. I agree with the making a list to what cards are in your reserve pile. Instead of putting a sticker on the card sleeve, could you choose a different color card sleeve instead as a way to tell your deck apart from your reserve pile or would that be considered a no-no?

you could easily spot the cards in your deck with a different color sleeve.
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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2018, 12:47:29 PM »
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This is kinda a question and not meant to anger anyone. I agree with the making a list to what cards are in your reserve pile. Instead of putting a sticker on the card sleeve, could you choose a different color card sleeve instead as a way to tell your deck apart from your reserve pile or would that be considered a no-no?

Unfortunately cards from Reserve can hit the deck, at which point it can't truly be randomized.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2018, 01:13:00 PM »
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This is kinda a question and not meant to anger anyone. I agree with the making a list to what cards are in your reserve pile. Instead of putting a sticker on the card sleeve, could you choose a different color card sleeve instead as a way to tell your deck apart from your reserve pile or would that be considered a no-no?

Unfortunately cards from Reserve can hit the deck, at which point it can't truly be randomized.
Question for the Elders...

The only point to any of this is to avoid "marked" cards  (marked defined broadly to mean providing additional information to help identify a undisplayed card). Is that a correct statement?

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2018, 01:19:39 PM »
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For the most part. There's also the deck check, and between rounds spot check aspect. We did have a player penalized at Nationals for failing to return his reserve to the correct cards between rounds
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2018, 01:25:47 PM »
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For the most part. There's also the deck check, and between rounds spot check aspect. We did have a player penalized at Nationals for failing to return his reserve to the correct cards between rounds
OK.  Just wanting to make sure I wasn't missing something.

I can say as a player, if I brought a deck to a tournament and a host told me I couldn't play it because I denoted my reserve cards by adding a R in permanent marker on the front of a sleeve or had a sticker in the sandwich of a double sleeved deck, I would be a bit miffed.

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2018, 01:34:11 PM »
+1
For the most part. There's also the deck check, and between rounds spot check aspect. We did have a player penalized at Nationals for failing to return his reserve to the correct cards between rounds
OK.  Just wanting to make sure I wasn't missing something.

I can say as a player, if I brought a deck to a tournament and a host told me I couldn't play it because I denoted my reserve cards by adding a R in permanent marker on the front of a sleeve or had a sticker in the sandwich of a double sleeved deck, I would be a bit miffed.

As a host, if a player brought marked Reserve cards to my tournament, the way I would decide if it were acceptable would be to shuffle the deck and Reserve in question together and if I can identify the Reserve cards while the deck is face down, I would ask them to remove the mark. In the case of the two examples you gave, I would almost certainly be able to feel a sticker inside the sleeves but likely have no way to detect a written R, so I would allow the latter but not the former.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2018, 01:45:09 PM »
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+1 as long as the Reserve list also accompanied the deck. However, it is up to the host's judgement on whether the cards are distinguishable or not, and even if I felt my marking system made them indistinguishable, if the host disagreed then I would abide by that. 
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2018, 02:59:17 PM »
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I wouldn’t care either if it was written with a permanent marker on the face of the sleeve. The sticker is the issue imo. I tried it early on in casual play and it was more of a problem than a help. In any case, if you know your deck/Reserve well enough (which you should if you’re bringing that deck to a tournament) only a list is really necessary.
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Offline SEB

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2018, 09:27:18 AM »
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The idea of "marking" cards with a sticker or with a sharpie could be a bad precedent.

Sticker: speaking from a person who does illusions with cards, you can do some pretty narly deck manipulation with something like that!

Double sleeving + sharpie: less evasive, but banned in other card tournaments due to the fact that you can make a marking that can now reflect off the backs of the sleeves underneath more clearly.

People will always find a way to cheat if they really want to, but I would imagine a consistent approach that is clear is better overall: Don't mark cards.
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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2018, 07:55:59 AM »
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Question: for the reserve. Aren't you supposed to have a cheat sheet/write down what you have in your reserve? Can you keep the cheat sheet (need a better term for this) on your person?
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Mark sleeves for Reserve?
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2018, 09:19:12 AM »
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Question: for the reserve. Aren't you supposed to have a cheat sheet/write down what you have in your reserve? Can you keep the cheat sheet (need a better term for this) on your person?
Yes you are required to have a written reserve list, and yes you can keep the reserve list with you.

The original question was asking if there was some easier and less error prone method--in the heat of switching rounds--to identify and separate reserve and primary deck cards.

 


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